De ice fluid
Lets not forget that after removing ice and/or frost from an a/c, there's a big difference between:
- flying it on a nice day and
- flying it in icing conditions
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Fluid sprayed on to the airframe when the A/C is on the ground is v different to that which is exuded from a TKS system.
I know of a TKS deiced aircraft (not my own) whose TKS system is heavily contaminated with debris caused by using cheappie fluid. This is a very expensive and essential system to risk by using fluid which could be contaminated with particulate debris. Although the constituents may be present in the same quantities in truck deicer you may have some grit/debris in there which wouldn't matter if you were deicing trucks but would make a huge difference if your TKS stopped due to a blocked filter or blockage of the laser drilled holes in the titanium leading edge panels in heavy icing conditions.
Aeroshell 07 is a little cheaper in the channel Islands but still v expensive, it remains my first choice. (and I have used less than half a 20L drum this year so far).
SB
I know of a TKS deiced aircraft (not my own) whose TKS system is heavily contaminated with debris caused by using cheappie fluid. This is a very expensive and essential system to risk by using fluid which could be contaminated with particulate debris. Although the constituents may be present in the same quantities in truck deicer you may have some grit/debris in there which wouldn't matter if you were deicing trucks but would make a huge difference if your TKS stopped due to a blocked filter or blockage of the laser drilled holes in the titanium leading edge panels in heavy icing conditions.
Aeroshell 07 is a little cheaper in the channel Islands but still v expensive, it remains my first choice. (and I have used less than half a 20L drum this year so far).
SB
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About here:
"Truck deicer and the aero shell stuff is identical"
SB
"Truck deicer and the aero shell stuff is identical"
SB
At no time did I suggest putting it in the TKS. In fact I pointed out that I put the real stuff in the TKS system on the Diamond. I just happen to have rather a lot of it in the back of the hangar!
However the truck de-icer is exactly the same constitution and a visual comparison does not show the piles of hole clogging debris that you are panicking about. Whether I would use it in the TKS system is a different matter.
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At no time did I suggest putting it in the TKS.
However as I mentioned if you let on you will invalidate the warranty. Diamond do not and will not approve any other deicer for use on the wing preflight - rightly or wrongly!
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Truck de-ice fluid
So Bose, did you get the name of the truck de-icer that's just like RDF? You were going to post it. I rarely need it as we have hangarage but there are occasions when fluid would come in handy - but I'm not going to pay £120 for 25 litres, which would last me until global warming eliminates the problem.
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Halfords stuff etc is not anti ice, you may well need an anti ice as well as a deicer or a good lawyer.
It sounds like a great bargain on a forum to use unapproved fluids but it may not sound so sensible in a litigation court room.
I remember a CFI who used to swear by a good broom as a deicer, he spun in after take off at Edinburgh.
It sounds like a great bargain on a forum to use unapproved fluids but it may not sound so sensible in a litigation court room.
I remember a CFI who used to swear by a good broom as a deicer, he spun in after take off at Edinburgh.
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I remember a CFI who used to swear by a good broom as a deicer, he spun in after take off at Edinburgh."
Spot on llan - If you can afford avgas and the cost of flying then you can afford to use an approved deicer.
Anything else is not only a false economy but also potentially dangerous.
In the last 12 months I have used less than 20 litres of aeroshell 07 as an in flight deicing TKS fluid - it is very pricey but works very well at melting all the nasty rapidly accumulating white stuff off the windscreen, prop and the leading edges esp when I cross a front.
My aircraft has never required external deicing as it rarely sits outside rotting (in the winter I stick it in a hangar even when away from base if I am spending the night away)- The aeroshell costs me approx £1 per flying hour extra per annum to use and I don't begrudge it.
Why not put the aircraft inside a hangar if you plan an early departure the next day?
SB
Spot on llan - If you can afford avgas and the cost of flying then you can afford to use an approved deicer.
Anything else is not only a false economy but also potentially dangerous.
In the last 12 months I have used less than 20 litres of aeroshell 07 as an in flight deicing TKS fluid - it is very pricey but works very well at melting all the nasty rapidly accumulating white stuff off the windscreen, prop and the leading edges esp when I cross a front.
My aircraft has never required external deicing as it rarely sits outside rotting (in the winter I stick it in a hangar even when away from base if I am spending the night away)- The aeroshell costs me approx £1 per flying hour extra per annum to use and I don't begrudge it.
Why not put the aircraft inside a hangar if you plan an early departure the next day?
SB
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You can use either, Kilfrost TKS 80, Aeroshell Compound 07 or alternativly AL-5 (DTD 406B) On the DA 42. They are all approved.
Get looking as nobody has got any Aeroshell compound 07 in the UK, that I know as we wanted some last week.
Get looking as nobody has got any Aeroshell compound 07 in the UK, that I know as we wanted some last week.
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100LL
I understoood Diamond had only approved the Aero Shell? Clearly you know differently?
I also couldnt find any Aero Shell two weeks ago.
Have you got suppliers of the alternatives?
I understoood Diamond had only approved the Aero Shell? Clearly you know differently?
I also couldnt find any Aero Shell two weeks ago.
Have you got suppliers of the alternatives?
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Prop icing
As an interesting aside (well, to me, anyway)...
We ran up the fleet of PA28s yesterday as they hadn't run for a few days and would be likely laid up for another few. I ran one at 1500-1800 RPM slightly leaned off until the oil temperature was just into the green arc. The weather conditions were 125m in fog, -2/-2. When I'd finished, I had a look at the prop; there was a THICK layer of ice on the leading edge and all down the back of it, both blades, on the inboard half. That was just from running it on the ground in the fog! Of course, there's absolutely NO anti/de-ice capability on the Warrior, aside the Pitot heater.
Hopefully the benefits of keeping the battery charged and thoroughly warming up the oil will offset any additional condensation that might happen inside the crankcase as it cools down again!
TheOddOne
We ran up the fleet of PA28s yesterday as they hadn't run for a few days and would be likely laid up for another few. I ran one at 1500-1800 RPM slightly leaned off until the oil temperature was just into the green arc. The weather conditions were 125m in fog, -2/-2. When I'd finished, I had a look at the prop; there was a THICK layer of ice on the leading edge and all down the back of it, both blades, on the inboard half. That was just from running it on the ground in the fog! Of course, there's absolutely NO anti/de-ice capability on the Warrior, aside the Pitot heater.
Hopefully the benefits of keeping the battery charged and thoroughly warming up the oil will offset any additional condensation that might happen inside the crankcase as it cools down again!
TheOddOne
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Had a company in Belgium Email us last week touting for customershttp://www.aero-sense.com/TKS.htm I think they have some.
We are down to our last 40 Lts, we tried to get some last week but could not find any. Silmed are quoting at least 7 days.
Try Aero-sense dont know what the shipping from Belgium would be. Alternativly try and find something that complies with DTD 406B, thats listed as an alternate for Diamond.
We are down to our last 40 Lts, we tried to get some last week but could not find any. Silmed are quoting at least 7 days.
Try Aero-sense dont know what the shipping from Belgium would be. Alternativly try and find something that complies with DTD 406B, thats listed as an alternate for Diamond.
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Prop de-ice is a serious business. I reckon that many of the reports of performance loss due to structural icing are in fact caused by loss of power due to prop icing.
I've been into icing conditions (safely, with warm air below etc) to see the impact on the IAS and while I had difficulty picking up more than about 5-8mm of rime/clear in the time I had, I saw a negligible speed drop. My prop is TKS de-iced and the fluid also sprays all over the front window as a result. It's a relatively cheap installation (about £3k) and obviously very effective.
The problem with ground running as described above is that the RPM is low and the prop blades are doing a very low mach number (or TAS if you like). At full cruise RPM, say 2400 or 2500, most of the blade is doing the bigger part of mach 1 and the corresponding aerodynamic heating protects the outer part of the blade from icing. You can still get icing lower down the blade, and those parts are traditionally protected either with TKS or by electric heating. But during a low speed ground run the whole prop can get covered with ice.
The SOP for icing conditions includes going to max RPM, for the reasons above.
Supercooled water can exist (stratus cloud) only between 0C and about -15C and thus any airframe component which heats up by more than 15C will not collect ice. This happens (assuming a surface parallel to the airflow) at about 350kt TAS and, as well as comprehensive anti-ice systems, is what protects jet aircraft and gives them the tremendous mission capability compared to what we have.
I've been into icing conditions (safely, with warm air below etc) to see the impact on the IAS and while I had difficulty picking up more than about 5-8mm of rime/clear in the time I had, I saw a negligible speed drop. My prop is TKS de-iced and the fluid also sprays all over the front window as a result. It's a relatively cheap installation (about £3k) and obviously very effective.
The problem with ground running as described above is that the RPM is low and the prop blades are doing a very low mach number (or TAS if you like). At full cruise RPM, say 2400 or 2500, most of the blade is doing the bigger part of mach 1 and the corresponding aerodynamic heating protects the outer part of the blade from icing. You can still get icing lower down the blade, and those parts are traditionally protected either with TKS or by electric heating. But during a low speed ground run the whole prop can get covered with ice.
The SOP for icing conditions includes going to max RPM, for the reasons above.
Supercooled water can exist (stratus cloud) only between 0C and about -15C and thus any airframe component which heats up by more than 15C will not collect ice. This happens (assuming a surface parallel to the airflow) at about 350kt TAS and, as well as comprehensive anti-ice systems, is what protects jet aircraft and gives them the tremendous mission capability compared to what we have.
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Prop de-ice is a serious business.
By the way dont forget dont forget that Kilfost is supposed to be mixed with hot water. I once nicked a small amount of the concentrated stuff to deice my car windscreen it was useless!
