(Loose) formation flying
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OK, very interesting.
When I did my bit of formation training, we did not consider 600m to be formation flying.
In a busy circuit at an A/G radio licensed airfield it is quite normal to fly within 600 m of another aircraft without any formation training.
Most of my “close flight” with other aircraft has been in thermals with other gliders. Flying quite close with complete strangers with often no radio contact…
I guess some of you lead very sheltered lives.
Rod1
When I did my bit of formation training, we did not consider 600m to be formation flying.
In a busy circuit at an A/G radio licensed airfield it is quite normal to fly within 600 m of another aircraft without any formation training.
Most of my “close flight” with other aircraft has been in thermals with other gliders. Flying quite close with complete strangers with often no radio contact…
I guess some of you lead very sheltered lives.
Rod1
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
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Originally Posted by M609
Østersund Air Base
That being said, formation photo shoots do seem to offer more than the standard amount of potential for tears before bedtime. Non-standard formation positions, lots of farting about trying to catch the sun and that particularly fluffy cloud in the right place, lense caps disappearing down the back of the aircraft, and finally the budding David Bailey decides he needs a chunder. None of which help much. Doesn't mean you can take the rudder off the other bloke while wiping spew off the snapper though. I know, those that have and those that will, but this particular example does look a bit suspect. Börk Börk Börk.
Originally Posted by Rod1
Stuff about gliders, doing glider stuff.
Originally Posted by Rod1
600 metres.
Actually, if you're not confident any closer, trailing a few hundred metres back can be a bad place to be - happened to me once, before I saw the light and got some training. Following a Warrior in the Yak on the way back from an annual, at what seemed at the time a respectable 300 metres or so behind. The Squirrel converging from the right (correctly) concluded that the instructor Warrior driver hadn't seen him (because, as later established, he was dicking about with the GPS - lovely chap, now flying an Airbus) wasn't going to do anything about it, so elected to turn and pass behind the PA28 - roughly 300 metres behind. I don't think the Squirrel ever saw me, being fixated on the traffic he was avoiding. Valuable lesson though - either keep it close - and accept this requires training - or don't even try. Half-measures don't help anyone.
Originally Posted by Rod1
Sheltered lives
Last edited by eharding; 23rd Nov 2007 at 22:48.
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I guess some of you lead very sheltered lives.
A formal, complete military formation brief can take up to an hour (even when at the limits of tactical formation ie 2km between aircraft). If you cannot think why it could possibly take so long then maybe you should have some formal training so you realise what you're missing. There are a number of important considerations that are by no means obvious to the uninitiated. Admittedly, with experience and operational necessity that time reduces significantly but only after all members of the crews involved are sufficiently familiar with the SOPs). There are a lot of hidden dangers and if you undertake any sort of formation flying (or flying in company with) without sufficient training and planning, you are liable to get bitten in the ass by something you didn't see coming.
As with most aspects of aviation, (eg aeros, IMC) if you choose to step outside your training/ability envelope without due consideration, you may come unstuck.
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I guess you have no idea of the experience levels (especially in formation flying) of some of the chaps who are offering advice here. Not having a dig, but those who formate professionally will be sucking through their teeth at the thought of low hours, PPLs gashing it and 'having a go' at formation.
A formal, complete military formation brief can take up to an hour (even when at the limits of tactical formation ie 2km between aircraft). If you cannot think why it could possibly take so long then maybe you should have some formal training so you realise what you're missing.
A formal, complete military formation brief can take up to an hour (even when at the limits of tactical formation ie 2km between aircraft). If you cannot think why it could possibly take so long then maybe you should have some formal training so you realise what you're missing.
My first employment after high school involved formation flight at low levels while spraying crops...which included flight beneath power lines. Not once did we ever brief a flight, and we might make a couple dozen a day.
Proper training, yes. Taking it seriously, yes. A one hour brief to go fly formation? If you need it, yes...but it's definitely not necessary. Not by a long shot.
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Just for the last time I would like to clarify, I am not talking about formation flight. I completely agree that if you are going to sit 25 m up to a few hundred meters you need the full deal, no argument.
Following another aircraft at 600m, perhaps in the circuit, does not require military precision.
Rod1
Following another aircraft at 600m, perhaps in the circuit, does not require military precision.
Rod1
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One of the earlier posters mentioned something which is not obvious until you've tried it several times.
This is that things do go wrong very quickly. You look at the map, or refold it. Then you look out and the other aircraft isn't where you thought it should be.
Where is it?
What do you do?
Being in radio contact helps enormously, hence my comment about it being easier with two radios.
Its surprising how many blind spots there are and while you are rapidly scanning to find your partner, there may be radio calls from ATC, handover to another controller, other traffic, navigation etc etc to take care of...as well as flying the aircraft!!!
So for the first time make sure you are in radio contact on a fequency that you can both talk on. Then if either of you loses contact you can immediately say so on the radio. You can also warn your partner about height and course changes etc.
This is that things do go wrong very quickly. You look at the map, or refold it. Then you look out and the other aircraft isn't where you thought it should be.
Where is it?
What do you do?
Being in radio contact helps enormously, hence my comment about it being easier with two radios.
Its surprising how many blind spots there are and while you are rapidly scanning to find your partner, there may be radio calls from ATC, handover to another controller, other traffic, navigation etc etc to take care of...as well as flying the aircraft!!!
So for the first time make sure you are in radio contact on a fequency that you can both talk on. Then if either of you loses contact you can immediately say so on the radio. You can also warn your partner about height and course changes etc.
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No, but on Frösön, not to far from Bräcke, Åre, Mörsil, Åsama, Klövsjö...
) I just had an Arctic beer at the most northerly town in the world (so they like to say) 
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SNS3Guppy,
I think we are singing from the same hymn sheet here. You just chose to quote me selectively, not mentioning:
A first timer with no formal formation training will not have 'sufficient familiarity with the SOPs' and if his formation brief takes only 5 minutes it is most likely because important aspects have not been considered. If experienced crews' formation brief takes only 5 minutes it is because some things can be left unsaid because all members are already intimately familiar with that type of flying.
Rod,
With regards to your last post, let's not get tied up in terminology. You and many others may use the terms 'formation' and 'in company with' whereas others use 'close formation' and 'loose/battle/tactical formation' respectively. Therefore, 600m separation, would still be referred to as formation by many posters here. In fact 2000m would still be treated as formation, in terms of administration, briefing, planning and operating by those with military backgrounds.
Talking about the circuit is a red herring, because the movement and intentions of aircraft in the circuit are by definition explicit and predictable. This is not so elsewhere.
The general perception is that you'll sit nicely in position relative to the lead, he'll always be in the same spot in the windscreen, the weather will be fine, the comms will be snagless, nav will be easy, lead won't do anything 'unusual', there won't be any tech snags, lead will consider 2 in his decision making etc. etc.
In reality this will never happen. Something unexpected will always occur, and this is where training, planning and briefing become important.
I think we are singing from the same hymn sheet here. You just chose to quote me selectively, not mentioning:
with experience and operational necessity that time reduces significantly but only after all members of the crews involved are sufficiently familiar with the SOPs
Rod,
With regards to your last post, let's not get tied up in terminology. You and many others may use the terms 'formation' and 'in company with' whereas others use 'close formation' and 'loose/battle/tactical formation' respectively. Therefore, 600m separation, would still be referred to as formation by many posters here. In fact 2000m would still be treated as formation, in terms of administration, briefing, planning and operating by those with military backgrounds.
Talking about the circuit is a red herring, because the movement and intentions of aircraft in the circuit are by definition explicit and predictable. This is not so elsewhere.
The general perception is that you'll sit nicely in position relative to the lead, he'll always be in the same spot in the windscreen, the weather will be fine, the comms will be snagless, nav will be easy, lead won't do anything 'unusual', there won't be any tech snags, lead will consider 2 in his decision making etc. etc.
In reality this will never happen. Something unexpected will always occur, and this is where training, planning and briefing become important.
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My thinking is assuming first that the following aircraft is either single seater or occupied by only one pilot plus passengers who cannot be relied on to help in this scenario. Also that the pilots have no prior experience.
The lead aircraft is responsible for all navigating and radio calls and is responsible for the safety of the formation.
The formatting aircraft is responsible for not hitting the leader, maintaining position and for the safety of his/her aircraft. The following aircraft will listen out on the radio and keep a mental picture of where he/she is, it is best not to look at maps etc, these few seconds could spell disaster, at first. I would suggest flying behind and slightly to one side at whatever distance you feel safe, then add a bit. If you want to add a bit more safety then fly slightly lower if this helps to see the lead aircraft against the horizon.
The following scenario should be covered in the briefing. If the following aircraft loses the leader he has 5-10 seconds, could be less to make a decision. If the leader is to his right he turns left, away from potential danger of collision and then checks for the leader. Do you rejoin depends on circumstances.
Again prepare at the briefing for what happens if visibility deteriorates, what do you do? Depends on experience, if you already have experience you would get closer, if not you might have to abandon the formation.
The briefing is there to concentrate on what happens if something unexpected happens, the leader has to turn rapidly to avoid a collision with another aircraft or weather. Engine failure, radio failure, air traffic control instructions that could cause confusion, particular detail should be done on what happens at arrival at destination, how is the formation to be ended. Practice all of these from your home airfield first or do a short cross country flight to a place you regularly visit to build up some experience. If you are flying different types you need to be aware of the different performances of the aircraft and practice for this as well. If air traffic ask you to descend by 2-3000 ft quickly, then how do you handle this safely for both aircraft.
My last comment is do not push yourself beyond your capabilities, trying to do 2-3 hour flight like this for the very first time is very exhausting and your landing(s) will show it!
There are many points that others have already added and I am sure going by the number of posts many more will come. Practice and briefings are the things that will save you though! Enjoy yourself
If there are two pilots in the following aircraft, one pilot must have responsibilities on maintaining watch on the leader, decide at the briefing who is in charge of maintaining formation and who is flying the aircraft.
The lead aircraft is responsible for all navigating and radio calls and is responsible for the safety of the formation.
The formatting aircraft is responsible for not hitting the leader, maintaining position and for the safety of his/her aircraft. The following aircraft will listen out on the radio and keep a mental picture of where he/she is, it is best not to look at maps etc, these few seconds could spell disaster, at first. I would suggest flying behind and slightly to one side at whatever distance you feel safe, then add a bit. If you want to add a bit more safety then fly slightly lower if this helps to see the lead aircraft against the horizon.
The following scenario should be covered in the briefing. If the following aircraft loses the leader he has 5-10 seconds, could be less to make a decision. If the leader is to his right he turns left, away from potential danger of collision and then checks for the leader. Do you rejoin depends on circumstances.
Again prepare at the briefing for what happens if visibility deteriorates, what do you do? Depends on experience, if you already have experience you would get closer, if not you might have to abandon the formation.
The briefing is there to concentrate on what happens if something unexpected happens, the leader has to turn rapidly to avoid a collision with another aircraft or weather. Engine failure, radio failure, air traffic control instructions that could cause confusion, particular detail should be done on what happens at arrival at destination, how is the formation to be ended. Practice all of these from your home airfield first or do a short cross country flight to a place you regularly visit to build up some experience. If you are flying different types you need to be aware of the different performances of the aircraft and practice for this as well. If air traffic ask you to descend by 2-3000 ft quickly, then how do you handle this safely for both aircraft.
My last comment is do not push yourself beyond your capabilities, trying to do 2-3 hour flight like this for the very first time is very exhausting and your landing(s) will show it!
There are many points that others have already added and I am sure going by the number of posts many more will come. Practice and briefings are the things that will save you though! Enjoy yourself
If there are two pilots in the following aircraft, one pilot must have responsibilities on maintaining watch on the leader, decide at the briefing who is in charge of maintaining formation and who is flying the aircraft.
