Quick log book question...
Joined: Feb 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: one dot low as usual
You can record what you like in your logbook. However operating as "P2" on an a/c type that doesn't require a copilot won't count for anything regards to licencing, experience etc.
Formerly HWD
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 125
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From: Indochina
Gav28,
Yes you can, but not as actual flying time. If you want to record your other aerial escapades in your log book (and why not) then log it as "SNY" (Supernumerary) and record the time only in the "Any other flying" column. This is defined in LASORS as "No duties assigned".
Yes you can, but not as actual flying time. If you want to record your other aerial escapades in your log book (and why not) then log it as "SNY" (Supernumerary) and record the time only in the "Any other flying" column. This is defined in LASORS as "No duties assigned".
Last edited by Tony Hirst; 18th November 2007 at 06:32.
Hovering AND talking
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,711
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From: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
I suspect the original poster wants to know if the hours can be counted; to which, the answer is "no"!
What anyone records in their log book is up to them, but it's what is allowable that counts!
Cheers
Whirls
What anyone records in their log book is up to them, but it's what is allowable that counts!
Cheers
Whirls
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 77
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From: London & NYC
Thanks for the responses guys.
Someone I spoke to was telling me(obviously erroneously) that I could log it as hours which I thought sounded odd. Was never actually thinking of counting it even if it was possible to do.
Cheers
Someone I spoke to was telling me(obviously erroneously) that I could log it as hours which I thought sounded odd. Was never actually thinking of counting it even if it was possible to do.
Cheers
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,626
Likes: 12
From: UK
If you hold a FRTOL then you can log it as Radio Operator (FRO) in accordance with Article 35. If for some reason you didn't maintain your PPL and wanted to renew the FRTOL you would be asked for evidence of use of this licence which according to the ANO Schedule 8 is a Flight Crew Licence.
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
or better still people could actually read the rules and regulations which govern their flying....... Starting with LASORS.
What concerns me is how people manage to get pilot licenses without understanding the basic stuff.
What concerns me is how people manage to get pilot licenses without understanding the basic stuff.
Formerly HWD
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 125
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From: Indochina
Bose,
I suspect because there is so much to wade through, it is understandable that many cannot see the wood for the trees. The PPL exam requirement to demonstrate 75% knowledge of just a subset of the essentials a potential issue.
My regulatory capability came from the Thom book, I don't actually recall how I learnt about web resources and LASORS. Thinking about it now, an hour's sit down with an instructor on a rainy day would have gone a long way to clearing up the muddle that I now know I was in during my PPL and beyond!
I suspect because there is so much to wade through, it is understandable that many cannot see the wood for the trees. The PPL exam requirement to demonstrate 75% knowledge of just a subset of the essentials a potential issue.
My regulatory capability came from the Thom book, I don't actually recall how I learnt about web resources and LASORS. Thinking about it now, an hour's sit down with an instructor on a rainy day would have gone a long way to clearing up the muddle that I now know I was in during my PPL and beyond!
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
Tony thats my issue really. The standards are too low. Too many Instructors interested only in the hours in there log book and not interested in what should really be the bulk of the PPL which is how to find the answers to this stuff.
The average PPL students lose a lot of flying time to bad weather, that should be used for ground school covering the sort of stuff that is not in the PPL exams.
I think things like the confuser make it even worse as it encourages students just to study for the exams rather than using the exams as a test for a broader knowledge base.
Stepping down from my high horse now....
The average PPL students lose a lot of flying time to bad weather, that should be used for ground school covering the sort of stuff that is not in the PPL exams.
I think things like the confuser make it even worse as it encourages students just to study for the exams rather than using the exams as a test for a broader knowledge base.
Stepping down from my high horse now....
Formerly HWD
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 125
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From: Indochina
Bose,
I have no complaints over the quality of my flying training, standards were high and that is still apparent to me now. I suspect the instructors are responding to how the student progresses, as a student I just didn't know what I was missing and probably didn't communicate my muddle sufficiently. Only with experience has this become apparent. Perhaps my instructors had these gaps adequately filled during their initial training and so didn't perceive my issue. Perhaps my otherwise sterling progress through the PPL hid said muddle. Either way, there doesn't seem to be a detailed and proactive regulations and paperwork briefing.
With regards to the confuser, the CFI of my school was very non-plussed when I fell for one of the PPL Confuser's tell tale 'errors'!
I have no complaints over the quality of my flying training, standards were high and that is still apparent to me now. I suspect the instructors are responding to how the student progresses, as a student I just didn't know what I was missing and probably didn't communicate my muddle sufficiently. Only with experience has this become apparent. Perhaps my instructors had these gaps adequately filled during their initial training and so didn't perceive my issue. Perhaps my otherwise sterling progress through the PPL hid said muddle. Either way, there doesn't seem to be a detailed and proactive regulations and paperwork briefing.
With regards to the confuser, the CFI of my school was very non-plussed when I fell for one of the PPL Confuser's tell tale 'errors'!
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 0
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
Tony, not so much the standard of the flying training I take issue with it the standard of the ground side. Way to much gets missed. A large problem being low hours instructors who go from CPL 'hour building' to the Instructor course to using PPL students as an hour building ride. They don't have time to learn the reality of the real world and have nothing to pass onto students with respect to real flight planning, regulations even simple stuff like NOTAM checking.
The number of pilots who get airborne without checking NOTAM still takes me breath away. This is something that should be drilled in by Instructors.
Wet windy day, we can't go flying lets have a look at NOTAM or review LASORS or how to access internet resources...............
The number of pilots who get airborne without checking NOTAM still takes me breath away. This is something that should be drilled in by Instructors.
Wet windy day, we can't go flying lets have a look at NOTAM or review LASORS or how to access internet resources...............
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 585
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From: London
I'm guessing that BOSE has been flying for a long time and has had lots of time to gain experience and knowledge. But with all due respect to him, how much did he know immediately after first got a licence?
I once heard a PPL described as a 'licence to learn' and that's exactly what it is. I've been flying for ten years and I'm lucky enough to be flying for a living these days - but I'm still learning. Almost every time I fly, I learn something new. That will probably remain the case for as long as I fly.
The most dangerous people are the ones who get a PPL and think that they know everything. The second most dangerous are the ones who get a PPL and think that they are expected to know everything and are afraid to ask about things they don't know in case they look silly.
Questions come up on this forum again and again which to experienced pilots like BOSE seem banal, unecessary and things which the people who posted them should have known the answer to anyway. Personally, I'm glad that this forum exists so that these questions CAN be asked.
I once heard a PPL described as a 'licence to learn' and that's exactly what it is. I've been flying for ten years and I'm lucky enough to be flying for a living these days - but I'm still learning. Almost every time I fly, I learn something new. That will probably remain the case for as long as I fly.
The most dangerous people are the ones who get a PPL and think that they know everything. The second most dangerous are the ones who get a PPL and think that they are expected to know everything and are afraid to ask about things they don't know in case they look silly.
Questions come up on this forum again and again which to experienced pilots like BOSE seem banal, unecessary and things which the people who posted them should have known the answer to anyway. Personally, I'm glad that this forum exists so that these questions CAN be asked.
