PFL - Why into a field ?
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Pompey till I die
Joined: Nov 2006
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From: Guildford
PFL - Why into a field ?
I was just wondering. My PFLs are now at a point I'm happy with and I can put the plane down where I want quite accurately. It's always a field though.
In real life why wouldn't you go for a road ? There's quite a few motorways near where I fly, and given the choice I think I'd do much less damage coming into land on that tarmac than into a potentially boggy field.
Why do we always choose fields instead of motorways \ roads ? Is it simply the worry of disturbing traffic on the motorway ? I reckon if I was tanking it @70 mph and I had a cessna come down near me, I'd move out of it's ways and allow it room to land without much risk.
In real life why wouldn't you go for a road ? There's quite a few motorways near where I fly, and given the choice I think I'd do much less damage coming into land on that tarmac than into a potentially boggy field.
Why do we always choose fields instead of motorways \ roads ? Is it simply the worry of disturbing traffic on the motorway ? I reckon if I was tanking it @70 mph and I had a cessna come down near me, I'd move out of it's ways and allow it room to land without much risk.
Joined: May 2005
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From: Aberdeen, UK
For a start - you can't guarentee that joe public will react the same way to a cessna landing on the road infront/ontop of them - likely to cause chaos, and serious injury/death etc.
Also - PFLs are one thing - when the donkey stops for real, it may not be within gliding distance of a hard surface, and you can't push the glide. Also, the motorway/road may not be in the appropriate orientation for the prevaling wind on the day - landing into a field into the wind, or on a road (which might be busy or not quite as long and straight as you thought) with a tail wind? I know which I'd take!
Fields are pretty much availiable everywhere, so practicing into them is a good plan.
Also - PFLs are one thing - when the donkey stops for real, it may not be within gliding distance of a hard surface, and you can't push the glide. Also, the motorway/road may not be in the appropriate orientation for the prevaling wind on the day - landing into a field into the wind, or on a road (which might be busy or not quite as long and straight as you thought) with a tail wind? I know which I'd take!
Fields are pretty much availiable everywhere, so practicing into them is a good plan.
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Dublin
And what about those doing 45mph, and don't see you in their mirrors? They keep going along at 45mph, just where you're trying to land. Or worse still, those who see you in their mirrors, and hit the brakes.....you've no airspeed left to go over them.....
On top fo this, have a look at the motorway the next time you're on it. I don't know what they are like in the UK, but here in Ireland, they are a mass of lights, road signs and amco barriers.......You'd have a narrow enough runway to get it right, first time, under pressure. The field would give you more room for mistakes.
dp
On top fo this, have a look at the motorway the next time you're on it. I don't know what they are like in the UK, but here in Ireland, they are a mass of lights, road signs and amco barriers.......You'd have a narrow enough runway to get it right, first time, under pressure. The field would give you more room for mistakes.
dp
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 523
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From: Kent
... and not to forget the many "strings" that tend to run across / alongside main roads.
I was told the idea of landing on a road originates in the US of A. In days gone by you would commonly be navigating by following a road, across a wide open space with no traffic for miles. If you can find a section of motorway like this in the UK go for it - I'll stick with the fields.
OC619
I was told the idea of landing on a road originates in the US of A. In days gone by you would commonly be navigating by following a road, across a wide open space with no traffic for miles. If you can find a section of motorway like this in the UK go for it - I'll stick with the fields.
OC619
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,909
Likes: 24
From: England
If you think you would be able to land much easily on ANY motorway compared to a field you're kidding yourself. Motorways are not as straight as they seem from the air. You're very likely to hit a lamp post or centre reservation or even oncoming traffic! Even if you judged the curvature of the road perfectly, by the time you've had a chance to look ahead you'll notice a great big over-road coming up!
Sure, very James Bond like....but probably one of the worst places to land on.
Sure, very James Bond like....but probably one of the worst places to land on.
Joined: Aug 2003
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From: Surrey
A lot of US roads are wide, straight, lightly trafficked, with limited street furniture (i.e. signs, cables, camera, etc.) i.e. reasonably OK for landing - I have yet to come across a UK road like that 
. The UK is full of fields, all about the right size to be an airport. Ergo, UK pilots off airport land in fields and US pilots on roads.
. The UK is full of fields, all about the right size to be an airport. Ergo, UK pilots off airport land in fields and US pilots on roads.
Joined: Oct 2006
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From: Rep of Ireland
I believe that the bottom line is this. If you start doing practice PFL's on roads then you run a very major risk of causing traffic chaos or even a bad accident, even if you only go down to 300ft. People driving won't know that you're only practicing.
If you pracice PFL's into a field then there's little or no risk of causing an accident with traffic on the ground. Anyway don't you do power fail landings in the circuit where you practice actually putting it down on the tarmac with idle power from 1000ft. When you do practice PFL's in the training area the main objective is to set up the glide, pick a good spot, note the wind, and then set yourself up so that you can establish yourself on finals into your chosen spot.
If you can do a PFL from the circuit and land safely and if you can get down to finals on a selected field/area in the training area, then in the unfortunate event of a real power failure you would be able to, or at least have a very good chance of putting the plane down in a selected safe spot whatever the selected safe spot happen to be.
Martin.
If you pracice PFL's into a field then there's little or no risk of causing an accident with traffic on the ground. Anyway don't you do power fail landings in the circuit where you practice actually putting it down on the tarmac with idle power from 1000ft. When you do practice PFL's in the training area the main objective is to set up the glide, pick a good spot, note the wind, and then set yourself up so that you can establish yourself on finals into your chosen spot.
If you can do a PFL from the circuit and land safely and if you can get down to finals on a selected field/area in the training area, then in the unfortunate event of a real power failure you would be able to, or at least have a very good chance of putting the plane down in a selected safe spot whatever the selected safe spot happen to be.
Martin.
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: N.E. Derbyshire, UK
I believe that the bottom line is this. If you start doing practice PFL's on roads then you run a very major risk of causing traffic chaos or even a bad accident, even if you only go down to 300ft.
People have been known to put down on a freeway in the US but personally I wouldn't try it in the UK unless the motorway was closed or under construction (and then only the latter if there's a nice clear - and finished- stretch). Not very likely, so go for a decent field. Usually quite a few of them around, unless you're flying over water or mountainous terrain...
When I was training in Florida the instructor always told me to head for a road. They were invariably straight, long and empty. And plenty to choose from. In the UK there may be plenty to choose from but 99% of the time the other two factors don't apply....
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Amsterdam
Agreed. Establish the glide and do the other immediate actions, then simply look for the best place to put it down. Field, road, water, whatever at that point in time gives you the best chance of survival.
I was flying over Rotterdam yesterday, via one of the standard, published VFR approaches at 1500'. In case of an engine failure, you have three options there:
- Very tall buildings with side streets in between, with parked cars, lampposts, traffic lights, pedestrians, you name it.
- A two-times-four-lane highway with lighting in the median, sound-reflecting walls on the side and these portal-things overhead with the matrix signs
- The river - and that's not even reachable from every location in that arrival
My choice: establish a bit faster than best glide, approach to the highway running with the traffic. Use the excess speed to fly level over one portal, then duck under the next, then put her down as my speed matches that of most other traffic - most likely in the two leftmost lanes. I'd rather be in a collision with a car at 20 knots speed difference than fly into a building at stall speed. And if my time is up anyway, I'd rather make the papers than not!
Unfortunately, that highway is also one of the most severe congestion spots in the country, so it's very likely that there's a traffic jam in any case.
I was flying over Rotterdam yesterday, via one of the standard, published VFR approaches at 1500'. In case of an engine failure, you have three options there:
- Very tall buildings with side streets in between, with parked cars, lampposts, traffic lights, pedestrians, you name it.
- A two-times-four-lane highway with lighting in the median, sound-reflecting walls on the side and these portal-things overhead with the matrix signs
- The river - and that's not even reachable from every location in that arrival
My choice: establish a bit faster than best glide, approach to the highway running with the traffic. Use the excess speed to fly level over one portal, then duck under the next, then put her down as my speed matches that of most other traffic - most likely in the two leftmost lanes. I'd rather be in a collision with a car at 20 knots speed difference than fly into a building at stall speed. And if my time is up anyway, I'd rather make the papers than not!
Unfortunately, that highway is also one of the most severe congestion spots in the country, so it's very likely that there's a traffic jam in any case.
Last edited by BackPacker; 16th November 2007 at 17:17. Reason: Grammar
Joined: Oct 1999
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From: Anywhere
Originally Posted by Pompey Paul
Why do we always choose fields instead of motorways \ roads ? Is it simply the worry of disturbing traffic on the motorway ? I reckon if I was tanking it @70 mph and I had a cessna come down near me, I'd move out of it's ways and allow it room to land without much risk.
Nope - field every time!
Joined: Oct 2001
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From: Vancouver Island
You can land in the river in Rotterdam with the right airplane.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...rdamBridge.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...rdamBridge.jpg
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: england
Many years ago I landed a Tiger Club Stampe on the M25 between Sevenoaks - Godstone for a PFL. That was just as that section of the motorway was nearly finished and before it opened. No traffic; no people; very quiet, just a couple of cows watching from a field. That was why we carried on, landed and came to a full stop.
Don't fancy trying it now.
Don't fancy trying it now.
Joined: Oct 2006
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From: Ooh arrgh land
I am totally convinced Mr. Paul has to be in line for the 'wind up merchant of the year' award. It's genius.... much like pulling the pin out of a grenade and casually tossing it into a room before disapearing off over the horizon to watch it all kick off from a comfortable distance.
Last edited by BigAl's; 16th November 2007 at 20:45.
The Original Whirly
Joined: Feb 1999
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
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From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
It's simple really....
PRACTICE forced landings - choose a field so as not to break rule 5, annoy people, and end up with your flying career ended before it even started.
REAL forced landings - put it down anywhere appropriate in order to survive (and save the aircraft, though that's a non-essential bonus). Or as the nice man at the CAA Safety Evenings says: "Hit the softest thing you can find at the lowest possible speed".
I heard once of someone who had engine failure over New York, and glided under control through an office window, taking off the aircraft wings but landing safely, and with only minor injuries. Don't know if it's true or not. Would certain brighten up a bored office worker's day though, wouldn't it?
PRACTICE forced landings - choose a field so as not to break rule 5, annoy people, and end up with your flying career ended before it even started.
REAL forced landings - put it down anywhere appropriate in order to survive (and save the aircraft, though that's a non-essential bonus). Or as the nice man at the CAA Safety Evenings says: "Hit the softest thing you can find at the lowest possible speed".
I heard once of someone who had engine failure over New York, and glided under control through an office window, taking off the aircraft wings but landing safely, and with only minor injuries. Don't know if it's true or not. Would certain brighten up a bored office worker's day though, wouldn't it?
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: USA
I've made a lot of landings on roads, fields, dirt strips, gravel space, and other such places in the course of my work, on a regular basis. I've also had occasion to make forced landings over the years, and have experienced in the order of 40 or so engine failures (11, I believe, in single engine airplanes). The last one occured last year in a turbine powered single engine tailwheel airplane, in a very mountainous area, inside a narrow canyon. It resulted in a forced landing on a hillside.
What I teach students regarding forced landings is first and foremost, fly the airplane. Don't get so caught up in what you land on that you don't make it to the landing. That happens more often than you might think. Right in that same vein are the folks that decide too low to change their chosen landing site when they get close enough to see that it isn't as glorious a place as they thought.
With the airplane under control, pick the best option for the landing. It may be a road, it may not; don't limit yourself Remember that any straight line you see on the ground will almost invariably have a powerline or fence or ditch alongside it, and almost always, intersecting it. Remember that most fields are not perfectly flat, and if it's got crops, can be very dangerous (tends to turn airplanes upside down, rip off gear, etc).
Get in the habit of staying current with simulated engine failures, and get in the habit of seeing up close what you've picked out from far above. Learn to judge a surface by the color of the crop or grass, the nature of a plowed field, softness, etc.
I very firmly believe that students who have only ever been given practice engine-out's to a landing on a runway, have been done a grave injustice. It's a crime to instruct a student, and send that student out into the world, that unprepared. No pilot should experience an engine failure and subsequent forced landing for the first time on their own. It should be familiar, having been there many times before under the guidance of a competent teacher. I like to take students into the fields at low altitude so they can see the obstacles that were invisible at altitude; it's an eye opener.
Students should learn that rough fields are invariably short, and all too often have obstacles. Therefore, a soft landing and a short field landing are really the same thing...though they're always taught as two different techniques. Likewise, most of the time a short field is a soft field, especially in rough conditions...and the airplane should be flown accordingly.
Pilots are all too infrequently shows the difference between minimum sink airspeed, and maximum glide airspeed; both are important, but most often I see instructors only teaching maximum glide. One should touch down at minimum sink to minimize vertical forces on landing. One should touch down in water at minimum sink too...but all too often I hear pilots describng their idea of a water landing...holding it off and stalling into the water. Anyone who has any water landing experience understands the fallacy of this, and a few glassy water landings to the prospective emergency student would make this abundantly clear, and why one should maintain a minimum speed and rate of descent all the way to impact.
How about landing in trees? I hear pilots telling me they'll stall an airplane into the trees, which is a great way to really hurt yourself. Rather than trying for those soft looking tops (they're not), try flying the airplane to the ground at the treeline and letting the wings take the impact forces; put the fuselage between the tree trunks in order to survive. Stop your energy at the tree tops, and you fall vertically. If you're in a pine forest or other tall trees, this means you get dropped from tree top height, which is an excellent way to be seriously injured or killed.
Don't restrict yourself to one surface or another. You may want to intentionally use a fence or a wingtip or water or tall grass or even corn to prevent going too far when the forced landing space is very limited; better to damage the airplane than damage you. Deploying flaps before landing and leaving the gear up may keep you upright and let the flaps take some of the energy; a good tradeoff for your life. Open up your mind and consider all the possibilities. Is the surface uphill, or downhill? Is one nearer help than another? Is there road access if fire or rescue personnel need to get to you?
Every time you fly, practice evaluating the ground beneath you as you enjoy the view, and review these elements in your mind to make it a habit. Picking a forced landing site may be limited to only one choice. If so, then take it. But where you may have more than one option, choose according to the bigger picture. It's in your best interest.
What I teach students regarding forced landings is first and foremost, fly the airplane. Don't get so caught up in what you land on that you don't make it to the landing. That happens more often than you might think. Right in that same vein are the folks that decide too low to change their chosen landing site when they get close enough to see that it isn't as glorious a place as they thought.
With the airplane under control, pick the best option for the landing. It may be a road, it may not; don't limit yourself Remember that any straight line you see on the ground will almost invariably have a powerline or fence or ditch alongside it, and almost always, intersecting it. Remember that most fields are not perfectly flat, and if it's got crops, can be very dangerous (tends to turn airplanes upside down, rip off gear, etc).
Get in the habit of staying current with simulated engine failures, and get in the habit of seeing up close what you've picked out from far above. Learn to judge a surface by the color of the crop or grass, the nature of a plowed field, softness, etc.
I very firmly believe that students who have only ever been given practice engine-out's to a landing on a runway, have been done a grave injustice. It's a crime to instruct a student, and send that student out into the world, that unprepared. No pilot should experience an engine failure and subsequent forced landing for the first time on their own. It should be familiar, having been there many times before under the guidance of a competent teacher. I like to take students into the fields at low altitude so they can see the obstacles that were invisible at altitude; it's an eye opener.
Students should learn that rough fields are invariably short, and all too often have obstacles. Therefore, a soft landing and a short field landing are really the same thing...though they're always taught as two different techniques. Likewise, most of the time a short field is a soft field, especially in rough conditions...and the airplane should be flown accordingly.
Pilots are all too infrequently shows the difference between minimum sink airspeed, and maximum glide airspeed; both are important, but most often I see instructors only teaching maximum glide. One should touch down at minimum sink to minimize vertical forces on landing. One should touch down in water at minimum sink too...but all too often I hear pilots describng their idea of a water landing...holding it off and stalling into the water. Anyone who has any water landing experience understands the fallacy of this, and a few glassy water landings to the prospective emergency student would make this abundantly clear, and why one should maintain a minimum speed and rate of descent all the way to impact.
How about landing in trees? I hear pilots telling me they'll stall an airplane into the trees, which is a great way to really hurt yourself. Rather than trying for those soft looking tops (they're not), try flying the airplane to the ground at the treeline and letting the wings take the impact forces; put the fuselage between the tree trunks in order to survive. Stop your energy at the tree tops, and you fall vertically. If you're in a pine forest or other tall trees, this means you get dropped from tree top height, which is an excellent way to be seriously injured or killed.
Don't restrict yourself to one surface or another. You may want to intentionally use a fence or a wingtip or water or tall grass or even corn to prevent going too far when the forced landing space is very limited; better to damage the airplane than damage you. Deploying flaps before landing and leaving the gear up may keep you upright and let the flaps take some of the energy; a good tradeoff for your life. Open up your mind and consider all the possibilities. Is the surface uphill, or downhill? Is one nearer help than another? Is there road access if fire or rescue personnel need to get to you?
Every time you fly, practice evaluating the ground beneath you as you enjoy the view, and review these elements in your mind to make it a habit. Picking a forced landing site may be limited to only one choice. If so, then take it. But where you may have more than one option, choose according to the bigger picture. It's in your best interest.