Mode S meeting with CAA
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Mode S meeting with CAA
The PFA have organized a mode S seminar at Saturday 17th November at Turweston, start time 10 a.m, open to PFA, BGA and BMAA members. CAA will be sending John Banks and Andy Greenwood and the session will finish quite late. I will be driving over from the Derby area, so if any PFA, BMAA or BGA members want to come along I can provide a lift.
If anybody has any questions thay would like put I can also try to get them asked. I hope to debunk the theory that it will be impossible to tour without mode S post March 08, but I may be disappointed
.
Rod1
If anybody has any questions thay would like put I can also try to get them asked. I hope to debunk the theory that it will be impossible to tour without mode S post March 08, but I may be disappointed
.Rod1
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Thanks Rod
I hope to be there myself on Saturday. If nothing else, I just love to see the looks of discomfort on the faces of the CAA team when they try to defend the indefensible.
I hope to be there myself on Saturday. If nothing else, I just love to see the looks of discomfort on the faces of the CAA team when they try to defend the indefensible.
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Thanks for the PM’s The meeting is now fully booked, but I can still ask questions if anyone has anything new to ask.
I will post a summary ASAP after the meeting.
Rod1
I will post a summary ASAP after the meeting.
Rod1
Question 1: Transport Canada and the FAA have gone on record that transponders will be phased out in favor of ADSB and have already installed ADSB systems. Why is Europe going over to Mode S when ADSB will eventually take over?
Question 2: How long will be Mode S transponders be in use in Europe before they are phased out in favor of ADSB?
Question 2: How long will be Mode S transponders be in use in Europe before they are phased out in favor of ADSB?
Last edited by RatherBeFlying; 13th Nov 2007 at 14:47.
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Mode S Summary of meeting with CAA 17th Nov 07
Originally the CAA intended to force all flying machines to install Mode S. This approach has been abandoned by the CAA, and the following is the future:
Phase 1
The present rules on the carriage of transponders will continue to apply only to;
Public transport flights
Flights at and above FL100
IFR flights in CAS below FL100
Flights in airspace notified in the UK AIP (London only at this time)
The above group were required to carry Mode A/C and now need Mode S Elementary Surveillance from 31st March 08. A 4 year transition period applies, taking the date to March 2012.
This summarizes the situation today and is a done deal.
Phase 2
This phase is about to enter consultation and is not a done deal. NONE of the following will come in before March 2012, if at all.
Mode S will be required for;
Aircraft making VFR flights within controlled airspace below FL100
Powered aircraft making international flights
Flights within any new “Transponder Mandatory Zones” TMZs, which may be created.
If we take each point in turn;
VFR flights within controlled airspace;
This was clarified as not mandatory. Each ATC unit will be able to clear non Mode S aircraft through subject to workload and aircraft based at strips will be able to negotiate a written exception.
Powered aircraft making international flights;
This is an Annex 6 ICAO convention requirement. The CAA part of this will not become mandatory, if at all, until March 2012. The CAA is also prepared to file exemptions in collaboration with other states. If, as seems likely, the French except large swathes of GA, then we will be able to go there and they will be able to visit us without Mode S. There is a meeting in December on this and the PFA will get an update, which I will post on this thread.
Flights within any new “Transponder Mandatory Zones” TMZs, which may be created;
This will be laid out in the consultation, but again you will not have to comply until March 2012. Applying for a TMZ will follow the existing airspace change procedure.
To sum up the CAA position -
It will certainly be possible to do serious touring (VFR) post March 08 without Mode S
. Post March 2012, it depends on the outcome of the meeting in December and the Consultation process on Phase 2
Phase 3 (you are not going to like this)
ADS-B may well form part of a future phase 3. No timeframe, and remember, if you get a Mode S unit with “extended Squatter” (no idea of spelling) you may be OK. You will need an approved GPS to be wired in to your Transponder.
Hope this is useful,
Rod1
PS: almost all the UK radars are capable of displaying Mode S data, but are not configured to do so at this time.
Originally the CAA intended to force all flying machines to install Mode S. This approach has been abandoned by the CAA, and the following is the future:
Phase 1
The present rules on the carriage of transponders will continue to apply only to;
Public transport flights
Flights at and above FL100
IFR flights in CAS below FL100
Flights in airspace notified in the UK AIP (London only at this time)
The above group were required to carry Mode A/C and now need Mode S Elementary Surveillance from 31st March 08. A 4 year transition period applies, taking the date to March 2012.
This summarizes the situation today and is a done deal.
Phase 2
This phase is about to enter consultation and is not a done deal. NONE of the following will come in before March 2012, if at all.
Mode S will be required for;
Aircraft making VFR flights within controlled airspace below FL100
Powered aircraft making international flights
Flights within any new “Transponder Mandatory Zones” TMZs, which may be created.
If we take each point in turn;
VFR flights within controlled airspace;
This was clarified as not mandatory. Each ATC unit will be able to clear non Mode S aircraft through subject to workload and aircraft based at strips will be able to negotiate a written exception.
Powered aircraft making international flights;
This is an Annex 6 ICAO convention requirement. The CAA part of this will not become mandatory, if at all, until March 2012. The CAA is also prepared to file exemptions in collaboration with other states. If, as seems likely, the French except large swathes of GA, then we will be able to go there and they will be able to visit us without Mode S. There is a meeting in December on this and the PFA will get an update, which I will post on this thread.
Flights within any new “Transponder Mandatory Zones” TMZs, which may be created;
This will be laid out in the consultation, but again you will not have to comply until March 2012. Applying for a TMZ will follow the existing airspace change procedure.
To sum up the CAA position -
It will certainly be possible to do serious touring (VFR) post March 08 without Mode S
. Post March 2012, it depends on the outcome of the meeting in December and the Consultation process on Phase 2Phase 3 (you are not going to like this)
ADS-B may well form part of a future phase 3. No timeframe, and remember, if you get a Mode S unit with “extended Squatter” (no idea of spelling) you may be OK. You will need an approved GPS to be wired in to your Transponder.
Hope this is useful,
Rod1
PS: almost all the UK radars are capable of displaying Mode S data, but are not configured to do so at this time.
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almost all the UK radars are capable of displaying Mode S data, but are not configured to do so at this time.
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It will certainly be possible to do serious touring (VFR) post March 08 without Mode S
As much as I hope that is true, I'm not sure that you presented enough into there to back that up.
What is the French's position on non French aircraft entering their airspace? As I understand it, the French are exempting (French aircraft only??) from mode S, outside controlled airspace only. As I understand it, they will need mode S to enter controlled airspace.
As you must enter France via a port of entry, and almost all ports of entry are contained within controlled airspace, you must have mode S to enter.
I'd love to be wrong, and am just going on what I've read here already. But your report from the meeting doesn't deal with these issues, presumably because no one from the DGAC was there, and as such isn't sufficent to back up the quote above.
dp
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dublinpilot
I would have considered flying from the Midlands (let alone the south coast) to Wick to be “serious touring”, but you are right, I did not define the term when I asked the question.
The situation regarding French airspace is unclear to the CAA, who is trying to sort it out and have a meeting in December, which may give us the position in the rest of Europe. If the French want to fly to the UK with no Mode S (and they will) then I think the CAA will allow an exception provided we can fly there. The existing class D airspace around L2K is theoretically Mode C mandatory, but you can get permission to enter with no Transponder at all, so we will have to see.
Rod1
PS there is a very lively discussion going on on Flyer if you want a look.
I would have considered flying from the Midlands (let alone the south coast) to Wick to be “serious touring”, but you are right, I did not define the term when I asked the question.
The situation regarding French airspace is unclear to the CAA, who is trying to sort it out and have a meeting in December, which may give us the position in the rest of Europe. If the French want to fly to the UK with no Mode S (and they will) then I think the CAA will allow an exception provided we can fly there. The existing class D airspace around L2K is theoretically Mode C mandatory, but you can get permission to enter with no Transponder at all, so we will have to see.
Rod1
PS there is a very lively discussion going on on Flyer if you want a look.
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To me, the Mode S battle seems to be practically lost and anybody doing any European touring should fit one and get on with their lives.
The real way to fly long legs in Europe under VFR is not scud running in Class G, often below 1000ft AGL, etc, but flying VMC on top in CAS, say Class C, at 5000-10000ft. In Spain and many other places you can go a lot higher. Class G scud runs are the norm in the UK but outside the UK they are reserved for hardened retired perpetual travellers who like to enjoy the local wine every time they get forced down
The real way to fly long legs in Europe under VFR is not scud running in Class G, often below 1000ft AGL, etc, but flying VMC on top in CAS, say Class C, at 5000-10000ft. In Spain and many other places you can go a lot higher. Class G scud runs are the norm in the UK but outside the UK they are reserved for hardened retired perpetual travellers who like to enjoy the local wine every time they get forced down
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IO540
At today's meeting the issue of a pilot was raised who intends to travel to Europe next year and wants to fit a Mode S, but this would take him outside the W&B limits of his craft.
There are still serious issues of practicalities with Mode S which won't be sorted for some time yet.
There were long discussions about this today and the CAA representatives have still not fully addressed the problem. This is reflected in the slowing down of the timescales since the previous RIA
At today's meeting the issue of a pilot was raised who intends to travel to Europe next year and wants to fit a Mode S, but this would take him outside the W&B limits of his craft.
There are still serious issues of practicalities with Mode S which won't be sorted for some time yet.
There were long discussions about this today and the CAA representatives have still not fully addressed the problem. This is reflected in the slowing down of the timescales since the previous RIA
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At today's meeting the issue of a pilot was raised who intends to travel to Europe next year and wants to fit a Mode S, but this would take him outside the W&B limits of his craft.
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The example given (and this is a bit off track) was a C42 micro. It is right on the micro empty weight limit, so cannot fit any more kit. He could take out the radio and then might have the ability to fit a Transponder, but the Germans require a radio so he still could not fly. This is not uncommon for a three-axis machine, several fit into the same category. In Europe allowance is given to fit certain kit on top of the empty weight limit, but not in the UK.
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After the microlite example, I also mentioned gliders such as the type I flew (Ka6) for 23 years, of which there are probably a hundred similar examples in the country, where in spite of stretching the maximum cockpit load by the maximum permitted 10 percent, I found myself unable to accommodate anything extra at all within the permitted weight limits. No room for extra instruments on the panel, no accommodation for extra weight for the battery to drive them. One did not have to be particularly heavy for the situation to arise with older gliders of that type, and possibly numerous others.
(The batteries required to drive a transponder, for several hours flying, would weigh several kilograms, in addition to the weight of the unit itself.)
The CAA response was that they didn't mention practicalities as a problem that emerged in their consultation, because it was covered by ”cost.” Their argument was that anything can be solved by throwing enough money at it. In cases like this, however, the only way throwing money at the problem could solve it would be by throwing away the whole aircraft and buying a different one, without such as severe weight limitation. In the microlite case, I wonder if that might extend to throwing away existing licensing and paying for a new course of training to get a licence for a different sort of aircraft.
Chris N
(The batteries required to drive a transponder, for several hours flying, would weigh several kilograms, in addition to the weight of the unit itself.)
The CAA response was that they didn't mention practicalities as a problem that emerged in their consultation, because it was covered by ”cost.” Their argument was that anything can be solved by throwing enough money at it. In cases like this, however, the only way throwing money at the problem could solve it would be by throwing away the whole aircraft and buying a different one, without such as severe weight limitation. In the microlite case, I wonder if that might extend to throwing away existing licensing and paying for a new course of training to get a licence for a different sort of aircraft.
Chris N
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At today's meeting the issue of a pilot was raised who intends to travel to Europe next year and wants to fit a Mode S, but this would take him outside the W&B limits of his craft.
It's silly to have an empty weight limit; that needs to be addressed in a meaningful manner. Otherwise, he could lose a bit of weight The way Great Britain is going on obesity, the sales of these machines must be heading towards zero over here.
The batteries required to drive a transponder, for several hours flying, would weigh several kilograms
That's quite incorrect and is just another Mode S scare story going around. My GTX330 draws about 0.5A at 28V. Two little sealed lead acid batteries in series would weight about 1kg total, dimensions 140x80x20mm (I have one in my hand) and at 2Ah would drive the unit for about 4 hours. But this is old technology and a laptop-type lithium battery would do several times the time for about 1/3 the weight; I have one of those in my hand too.
It's silly to have an empty weight limit; that needs to be addressed in a meaningful manner. Otherwise, he could lose a bit of weight
The way Great Britain is going on obesity, the sales of these machines must be heading towards zero over here.The batteries required to drive a transponder, for several hours flying, would weigh several kilograms
That's quite incorrect and is just another Mode S scare story going around. My GTX330 draws about 0.5A at 28V. Two little sealed lead acid batteries in series would weight about 1kg total, dimensions 140x80x20mm (I have one in my hand) and at 2Ah would drive the unit for about 4 hours. But this is old technology and a laptop-type lithium battery would do several times the time for about 1/3 the weight; I have one of those in my hand too.
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sealed lead acid batteries .. (I have one in my hand) ... lithium battery ... I have one of those in my hand too.
Made me smile as it reminded me of this playground joke:
Q. If I had one green ball in one hand, and another green ball in another hand, what would I have?
A. The undivided attention of the jolly green giant
Made me smile as it reminded me of this playground joke:
Q. If I had one green ball in one hand, and another green ball in another hand, what would I have?
A. The undivided attention of the jolly green giant
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IO540
Can't you accept that other people want something different from their flying than you do? Some people like doing it with cheap and simple equipment, some can only afford to do so. I have friends who go to Europe in a Cherokee 140. The aircraft is probably worth about £15k, so £4000 to fit a Mode S is a hell of a lot, especially when it might be out of date in a few years if the EASA decides on ADS-B.
4 hours is great battery life, I agree. However a glider's endurance limit is hours of daylight, in the right conditions. Scotland, mid summer, a bit windy for some nice wave. 16, 17 hours maybe? I know people who have been up for well over 5 hours. In any case you are also wrong about the current drain. The unit has a power input of 27W, which would require 0.96A on your 28V alternator, or 1.125A on a 24V battery (assuming that yours are 24V, not 12V which would require twice the current) which means that they would only last an hour and three quarters. No use at all to a glider pilot. That is before even considering that the pilot might prefer to have a radio, which itself needs power.
[Edit - glider endurance record is 56 hours 15 minutes, set in Provence]
anybody doing any European touring should fit one and get on with their lives
4 hours is great battery life, I agree. However a glider's endurance limit is hours of daylight, in the right conditions. Scotland, mid summer, a bit windy for some nice wave. 16, 17 hours maybe? I know people who have been up for well over 5 hours. In any case you are also wrong about the current drain. The unit has a power input of 27W, which would require 0.96A on your 28V alternator, or 1.125A on a 24V battery (assuming that yours are 24V, not 12V which would require twice the current) which means that they would only last an hour and three quarters. No use at all to a glider pilot. That is before even considering that the pilot might prefer to have a radio, which itself needs power.
[Edit - glider endurance record is 56 hours 15 minutes, set in Provence]
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Life's a Beech,
I think the point is that these exemptions don't seem to allow your friend to continue doing that. His touring looks like it will be limited to the UK unless he installs mode S.
I don't think IO is saying that Mode S is the way it should be, but rather that it is the way that it is.
Unfortunately, I'm coming to the same conclusion.
dp
I think the point is that these exemptions don't seem to allow your friend to continue doing that. His touring looks like it will be limited to the UK unless he installs mode S.
I don't think IO is saying that Mode S is the way it should be, but rather that it is the way that it is.
Unfortunately, I'm coming to the same conclusion.
dp