Mode S meeting with CAA
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very useful for airspace charging
Mode S is being sold there on the basis that additional Traffic Information can be uploaded from the ground and the result is small aircraft can receive useful information on surrounding traffic.
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The typical cost of £2500 + VAT was for a standard replacement of an KT76A in a PA28/Cessna 172 with a Garmin GTX330.
The problem of weight seems difficult to believe - a Filser Mode S unit weighs only 700g (and power consumption is only 200mA, so good unit in a Tigermoth on batteries).
Someone else mentioned the cost of mods and that they should be shared by the CAA. For certified aircraft, the fees go to EASA or the design organisation, not the CAA. A different mod has to be used for each aircraft type, because the mod is approved against the indiviual aircraft TCDS (Type Certificate data sheet). The owner of the mod has to determine whether to charge a full cost for generating the data, or a shared amount dependant upon how many aircraft they can use the mod on. Hope that helps.
The problem of weight seems difficult to believe - a Filser Mode S unit weighs only 700g (and power consumption is only 200mA, so good unit in a Tigermoth on batteries).
Someone else mentioned the cost of mods and that they should be shared by the CAA. For certified aircraft, the fees go to EASA or the design organisation, not the CAA. A different mod has to be used for each aircraft type, because the mod is approved against the indiviual aircraft TCDS (Type Certificate data sheet). The owner of the mod has to determine whether to charge a full cost for generating the data, or a shared amount dependant upon how many aircraft they can use the mod on. Hope that helps.
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“The problem of weight seems difficult to believe - a Filser Mode S unit weighs only 700g (and power consumption is only 200mA, so good unit in a Tigermoth on batteries).”
The Micros have a max empty weight, which must not be exceeded. Most of the 3 Axis aircraft have a small amount of leeway – maybe as little as 0.5kg. The aircraft are weighed every 3 years and if the weight is over the aircraft is grounded. In the UK this is strictly enforced, which for example, is why you cannot paint a Eurostar in the UK, it would push it over the max empty weight! In Europe it is less strictly enforced and there are lists of kit, which do not count, like a Ballistic Parashoot for example.
The CAA has known about this problem since 2003, but has done nothing to solve it. It is easy to say it will be solved, but if you had just bought a brand new C42 and discovered you could (A not fit a Transponder in the weight limit and (B the rules may be about to change to stop you flying to Germany without said Transponder, you would be a bit upset. We have no conformation that the CAA are going to change the rule, or even when a decision will be made. Fortunately for me there is no max empty weight concept in the VLA class!
Similar problems can exist in Gliding. Many years ago I flew a M100 and even with a 10% dispensation (the max you could get) I could not even take a transceiver up with me. Again, this could be solved by a change in the regs, but no commitment or date for a decision has been made, to the best of my knowledge.
Rod1
The Micros have a max empty weight, which must not be exceeded. Most of the 3 Axis aircraft have a small amount of leeway – maybe as little as 0.5kg. The aircraft are weighed every 3 years and if the weight is over the aircraft is grounded. In the UK this is strictly enforced, which for example, is why you cannot paint a Eurostar in the UK, it would push it over the max empty weight! In Europe it is less strictly enforced and there are lists of kit, which do not count, like a Ballistic Parashoot for example.
The CAA has known about this problem since 2003, but has done nothing to solve it. It is easy to say it will be solved, but if you had just bought a brand new C42 and discovered you could (A not fit a Transponder in the weight limit and (B the rules may be about to change to stop you flying to Germany without said Transponder, you would be a bit upset. We have no conformation that the CAA are going to change the rule, or even when a decision will be made. Fortunately for me there is no max empty weight concept in the VLA class!
Similar problems can exist in Gliding. Many years ago I flew a M100 and even with a 10% dispensation (the max you could get) I could not even take a transceiver up with me. Again, this could be solved by a change in the regs, but no commitment or date for a decision has been made, to the best of my knowledge.
Rod1
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Mode S in Germany & Belgium
Rod 1 your reply to my query did not address the matter. The CAA statement seemed to me to refer only to the UK.
It seems we are all in the dark regarding the continental situation.
It seems we are all in the dark regarding the continental situation.
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Just skimming through the posts here , the future for us PFA (sorry LAA) types running 40-50 year old Jodels etc looks bleak ! Who can justify spending 3-5k to equip an aircraft just to do a few cross channel jaunts a year . The old timer fly-in in Diest looks set to be down a lot of Brit a/c next year ! Shame
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The TRT 800A is the one I would fit if I was required to carry one tomorrow. It is 20% cheaper and still plug compatible with the KT76a. It also has Extended Squitter as standard for ADS-B and an integrated encoder saving another £160 ish plus less wiring.
Price - £1342.98 excluding VAT, £1578.00 including VAT
Maybe something else along before 2012.
Rod1
Price - £1342.98 excluding VAT, £1578.00 including VAT
Maybe something else along before 2012.
Rod1
Last edited by Rod1; 19th Nov 2007 at 21:57.
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...possibly, but we are dealing with the only Govt who expects their 'CAA' to make a profit.
They are not going to subsidise rich playboys when there are so many deserving causes around, like Northern Rock, Virgin and BA who need tax-payers money more than we do...
They are not going to subsidise rich playboys when there are so many deserving causes around, like Northern Rock, Virgin and BA who need tax-payers money more than we do...
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Currently my aircraft, a PA18, is not unairworthy / not allowed to fly if its Mode C transponder isn't working, as happens from time to time. When Mode S is mandatory will that change?
If so, it is absurd. I live in North Devon. If I fly one summer evening and don't switch my transponder on will the radar service try to track me back to my field location and prosecute? Are we actually going to see prosecutions of bimblers in uncontrolled airspace for not transponding Mode S? What a good use of public money that will be. I know of one Luton Minor, among many other aircraft, which will never have a Mode S transponder fitted, whatever the regs will say and it isn't alone. This regulation is ridiculous because it is pointless, effectively unenforceable and makes criminals out of otherwise law-abiding (mostly) citizens.
If so, it is absurd. I live in North Devon. If I fly one summer evening and don't switch my transponder on will the radar service try to track me back to my field location and prosecute? Are we actually going to see prosecutions of bimblers in uncontrolled airspace for not transponding Mode S? What a good use of public money that will be. I know of one Luton Minor, among many other aircraft, which will never have a Mode S transponder fitted, whatever the regs will say and it isn't alone. This regulation is ridiculous because it is pointless, effectively unenforceable and makes criminals out of otherwise law-abiding (mostly) citizens.
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QDM
Under the original proposal it might have been suggested that any flight without a working Mode S would have been outside the ANO.
However, the CAA are now very much aware that there are definite problems of practicality with certain types of aircraft. The gradual approach they are now proposing is putting off this sort of difficult problem into the far distant future.
Under the original proposal it might have been suggested that any flight without a working Mode S would have been outside the ANO.
However, the CAA are now very much aware that there are definite problems of practicality with certain types of aircraft. The gradual approach they are now proposing is putting off this sort of difficult problem into the far distant future.
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I think you probably know whose Luton I mean, WR, and he is not known to use the radio overmuch either!
Honestly, as far as light aviation and especially farmstrip aviation is concerned, the whole thing is nuts.
Honestly, as far as light aviation and especially farmstrip aviation is concerned, the whole thing is nuts.
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topoverhaul wrote:
Just plain wrong on the first count and I thought we'd been able to move away from pointless and simply incorrect hyperbole on the second two.
The only valid reason for Mode S was the need to reducing garbling of returns in the LHR stacks. However having every aircraft identifiable is very useful for airspace charging and prosecution of airspace infringers.
This regulation is ridiculous because it is pointless, effectively unenforceable and makes criminals out of otherwise law-abiding (mostly) citizens.
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shall we get rid of that dumb regulation requiring aircraft to display lights at night? It's completely unenforceable...
FRUIT and garbling - the 2 main reasons for Mode S - are of vastly less concern at lower (GA) levels or away from major airports.
The only tangible benefit to GA would be provision of 'Deconfliction' service in remote areas, when ADS-B is introduced.
The only tangible benefit to GA would be provision of 'Deconfliction' service in remote areas, when ADS-B is introduced.
It may be unenforceable, but it isn't pointless.
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It exists for exactly the same purpose as mandatory transponder carriage: so that other aircraft can detect you in time to avoid a collision.
Maybe we should have a regulation for all Commercial flights operating outside CAS to have airborne radar fitted - it is proven technology, it would be paid for by the beneficiaries, it would have no impact on non-commercial flights, and it would undoubtedly enhance the safety of those commercial flights. Anyone for lobbying the CAA?
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If you think the CAA are ready and willing to take on the airlines and NATS on GA's behalf.......
One of the slides shown at the presentation basically said that under the 2003 White Paper on Air Transport, there were certain assumptions:
1) That current traffic growth was to continue
2) That commercial air transport brought economic and social benefits to the UK
3) That ATC capacity needs to be increased to match the capacity of airports to accept increased traffic
etc etc
4) The CAA is expected to make quick progress on dealing with this
Nowhere is there a mention of GA, although it was said that in the short term, the CAA's terms of reference are to be changed to include GA (currently it is only CAT that is mentioned)
One of the slides shown at the presentation basically said that under the 2003 White Paper on Air Transport, there were certain assumptions:
1) That current traffic growth was to continue
2) That commercial air transport brought economic and social benefits to the UK
3) That ATC capacity needs to be increased to match the capacity of airports to accept increased traffic
etc etc
4) The CAA is expected to make quick progress on dealing with this
Nowhere is there a mention of GA, although it was said that in the short term, the CAA's terms of reference are to be changed to include GA (currently it is only CAT that is mentioned)
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Nowhere is there a mention of GA,
I can imagine the response from the airlines should airborne radar equipage as a solution be considered:
The equipment is too expensive.
We haven't got enough power on board.
It would add weight and reduce our payload.
Where would we fit the display in the cockpit?
Doesn't it produce a radiation hazard?
Any of this sound familiar?
