VFR above clouds?
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VFR above clouds?
Is it legal to fly above a cloud layer of 1-2 oktas (few) without an IR or IMC rating? In those conditions, you would be clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.
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I've always found it a grey area...in South Africa I know the CAA say that 3/8 cloud is still legal VFR...anything more and that is illegal for a non IR pilot.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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In the UK, the rules vary depending upon the class of airspace. In general terms, I would say that you may fly above cloud provided you are in sight of the surface and meet the appropriate visibility requirements for your licence and the class of airspace.
This is probably worth a look.
This is probably worth a look.
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YES
1) You can be VFR above cloud, no matter what some people here say. To those I say - recheck your facts regarding VMC minima. (Human Factors link is excellent for this).
2) You are clear of cloud and in sight of the surface, so are not breaching your licence conditions (I'm assuming UK PPL here).
I would even go so far as to say you woud be legal above SCT cloud (3 & 4 Oktas). Anything above that and it becomes a judgement call - you may be in sight of the surface, but how long will you stay that way if the holes fill in, or will you be able to comply with minima when you descend through a hole which is getting smaller.
1) You can be VFR above cloud, no matter what some people here say. To those I say - recheck your facts regarding VMC minima. (Human Factors link is excellent for this).
2) You are clear of cloud and in sight of the surface, so are not breaching your licence conditions (I'm assuming UK PPL here).
I would even go so far as to say you woud be legal above SCT cloud (3 & 4 Oktas). Anything above that and it becomes a judgement call - you may be in sight of the surface, but how long will you stay that way if the holes fill in, or will you be able to comply with minima when you descend through a hole which is getting smaller.
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I would not realy give a hoot about what is leagal, what I am interested in is what is safe!
As long as you can stay in contact with the surface, maintain the in-flight visibilty and decend safely within a gap in the cloud then you are unlikely to have any leagal come back. After all cloud movement is a dynamic thing and who in a court of law can fix the location of the clouds at a point in time.
As long as you can stay in contact with the surface, maintain the in-flight visibilty and decend safely within a gap in the cloud then you are unlikely to have any leagal come back. After all cloud movement is a dynamic thing and who in a court of law can fix the location of the clouds at a point in time.
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I would not realy give a hoot about what is leagal,
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You can certainly be VFR above a solid overcast. This can be done everywhere in the world, AFAIK.
The problem is whether the pilot's license permits him to fly VFR above a solid overcast. I know of two countries (there may be more) which prohibit this for their own license holders: the UK and South Africa. Nobody else in Europe (AFAIK) has this restriction.
Such a prohibition is valid worldwide so a UK issued PPL (or a UK issued JAA PPL) holder cannot fly above a solid overcast anywhere in the world. The requirement is that he is in sight of the surface.
For the UK PPL the restriction disappears if the holder has an IMC Rating or an IR, and again this is valid worldwide. (The IFR privileges of the IMC Rating are valid UK only but that is a separate issue).
So a UK PPL with the IMCR can depart IFR in the UK, climb up through the clouds and provided he is VMC on top by the airspace boundary with France, he can continue that way across France, and then he needs to be able to descend through a large hole in the cloud to land
As Rod1 says, one blade of grass visible through the clouds or whatever is enough to be legal.
Navigation is another matter; obviously UK PPL style dead reckoning won't be much good, but that wasn't the question was it
BTW Rod1 I don't see where the "3000ft" comes into it.
The problem is whether the pilot's license permits him to fly VFR above a solid overcast. I know of two countries (there may be more) which prohibit this for their own license holders: the UK and South Africa. Nobody else in Europe (AFAIK) has this restriction.
Such a prohibition is valid worldwide so a UK issued PPL (or a UK issued JAA PPL) holder cannot fly above a solid overcast anywhere in the world. The requirement is that he is in sight of the surface.
For the UK PPL the restriction disappears if the holder has an IMC Rating or an IR, and again this is valid worldwide. (The IFR privileges of the IMC Rating are valid UK only but that is a separate issue).
So a UK PPL with the IMCR can depart IFR in the UK, climb up through the clouds and provided he is VMC on top by the airspace boundary with France, he can continue that way across France, and then he needs to be able to descend through a large hole in the cloud to land
As Rod1 says, one blade of grass visible through the clouds or whatever is enough to be legal.
Navigation is another matter; obviously UK PPL style dead reckoning won't be much good, but that wasn't the question was it
BTW Rod1 I don't see where the "3000ft" comes into it.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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I don't see where the "3000ft" comes into it.
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So a UK PPL with the IMCR can depart IFR in the UK, climb up through the clouds and provided he is VMC on top by the airspace boundary with France, he can continue that way across France, and then he needs to be able to descend through a large hole in the cloud to land
You can certainly be VFR above a solid overcast. This can be done everywhere in the world, AFAIK.
The problem is whether the pilot's license permits him to fly VFR above a solid overcast. I know of two countries (there may be more) which prohibit this for their own license holders: the UK and South Africa.
The problem is whether the pilot's license permits him to fly VFR above a solid overcast. I know of two countries (there may be more) which prohibit this for their own license holders: the UK and South Africa.
VISUAL FLIGHT RULES
Visibility and distance from cloud
91.06.21 Every VFR flight shall be so conducted that the aircraft is flown with visual reference to the surface by day and to identifiable objects by night and at no time above more than three eighths of cloud within a radius of five nautical miles of such aircraft ...
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IO540 is quite correct.
Remember, PFA permit aircraft have to be flown VFR at all times. An IMCR changes the VFR rules, so you have a much more flexible system. Having said this, the "below 3000 ft rule" allows huge latitude provided your aircraft is appropriately equipped and you are competent. This is one of the reasons why it is possible to tour seriously in a permit aircraft, without actually braking the NO IFR rule.
My aircraft cruses at 138kn (odd that
) so I tend to forget the speed limit.
Rod1
Remember, PFA permit aircraft have to be flown VFR at all times. An IMCR changes the VFR rules, so you have a much more flexible system. Having said this, the "below 3000 ft rule" allows huge latitude provided your aircraft is appropriately equipped and you are competent. This is one of the reasons why it is possible to tour seriously in a permit aircraft, without actually braking the NO IFR rule.
My aircraft cruses at 138kn (odd that
) so I tend to forget the speed limit.Rod1
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Done it plenty of times, always found it a most spectacular and satisfying experence, much better to be a bit higher above the clouds (airspace permitting) than below in all the turbulence.
Always good fun when you suddenly realise that there is more cloud below you (ie 6-7 oktas) than there was before you went up there, pick a hole and dive!
Always good fun when you suddenly realise that there is more cloud below you (ie 6-7 oktas) than there was before you went up there, pick a hole and dive!
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The South African restriction is Rules of the Air, not licence privilege
Thank you bookworm - most interesting.
As for the cloud separation above 3000ft, I must get myself one of those laser measurement thingies that builders use, and point it out of the window at the nearest cloud
Oh and I also fly at 138kt IAS, at ~ 60% power, LOP. Funny that!
VFR above cloud is a wonderful way to do long legs across Europe. Just have to be very careful about the far end. And if going east of the UK one does tend to be reliant on getting transits through CAS, which is a lot more common than in the UK but is far from 100%.
Thank you bookworm - most interesting.
As for the cloud separation above 3000ft, I must get myself one of those laser measurement thingies that builders use, and point it out of the window at the nearest cloud
Oh and I also fly at 138kt IAS, at ~ 60% power, LOP. Funny that!
VFR above cloud is a wonderful way to do long legs across Europe. Just have to be very careful about the far end. And if going east of the UK one does tend to be reliant on getting transits through CAS, which is a lot more common than in the UK but is far from 100%.
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An IMCR changes the VFR rules
Please also note that UK VFR limits are different from ICAO and thus from most other countries (some of which have further differences). The most important one being that in controlled airspace C, D and E it is normally a requirement to meet the 1500m horizontally and 1000ft vertically from cloud requirements regardless of level.
------
IO540,
Perhaps ICAO wrongly give pilots some credit for judgement. Remember that when required it is a minimum and there is nothing stopping a pilot from being more than the minimum.
As you may be aware, it is unusual to meet the requirements for an appropriate level for cruising flight i.e. odd+500 or even+500 as appropriate under ICAO and manage to get only 1000ft separation from cloud. I find that it is usually obvious that there will be less than 1000ft or there is well more.
regards,
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VFR on top
I fly 172s in the Philippines of all places. Contrary to what some people have mentioned in connection with other country's regulations I can quite categorically state that VFR on top is NOT permitted in the Philippines unless you are flying an instrument flight plan and, needless to say, you have the appropriate endorsements on your license. I do not but I am learning IR.
In my opinion flying over clouds is a matter of common sense and safety. If for example you are flying along at 6000 and there is a cloud with a ceiling of 6500 and a base of 2000 in front of you, it would make much more sense to climb to 7000 to get over it than descend to 1500 to go under it. Subject, of course, to whether or not your are sure that the ground will always be in sight.
Bottom line here is don't do it unless you are 100% sure it is safe.
In my opinion flying over clouds is a matter of common sense and safety. If for example you are flying along at 6000 and there is a cloud with a ceiling of 6500 and a base of 2000 in front of you, it would make much more sense to climb to 7000 to get over it than descend to 1500 to go under it. Subject, of course, to whether or not your are sure that the ground will always be in sight.
Bottom line here is don't do it unless you are 100% sure it is safe.
should be 7500 over and 1000 under.
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Thanks for all the responses. The forecast was for few over Snowdon today, and I wanted to be sure that it was OK to fly over any cloud. However, it turned out to be broken, so I decided to fly around the mountain instead. Still great views though!
Thank god I live in OZ or I'd never get anywhere. Here so long as you have a nav aid rating such as a VOR or NDB and the NVFR rating does that you can fly VFR on top outside controlled airspace. For years I used to fly to Sydney in the winter from the west over full fog/ low cloud for 150nm untill crossing the Blue Mountains then decend from 7500' to clear conditions. You see here the prevaling westerlys push the cloud up to the mountains where they then back up for 150 miles or so and there is no getting under them in winter. Over the top is the only sensible way to go bathed in 10octas of sunshine and 10octas of whiteout below. The trick of course was to phone up before takeoff and confirm clear or at least suitable cloud conditions east of the divide and always have enough fuel to go back if you had to.
I know live in south Oz where there wouldn't be more that probaby 12days a year you couldn't go flying at some point due weather.
I know live in south Oz where there wouldn't be more that probaby 12days a year you couldn't go flying at some point due weather.
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New Zealand and Australia have their own little regulatory system which will keep GA there healthy and moving forward.
They are also so far from anywhere (in GA flight terms) that nobody nearby is likely to complain if they bring in regs which the neighbours don't approve of.
Here in Europe, we have a regulatory scene run largely by a bunch of elitist old ex airline codgers who (if they got their way) would ban everybody without an ATPL from flying IFR. I am certain that if it wasn't for ICAO, European GA would have been stuffed long ago.
There is a possibility (obviously I hope I am wrong) that in 20 years' time the only GA in Europe will be the "ultralight sports" stuff, buzzing around between farm strips at 500ft AGL, and the rest will be confined to the islands i.e. the USA, Australia, NZ, plus perhaps India and China if they play things over there the right way and follow the U.S. model.
They are also so far from anywhere (in GA flight terms) that nobody nearby is likely to complain if they bring in regs which the neighbours don't approve of.
Here in Europe, we have a regulatory scene run largely by a bunch of elitist old ex airline codgers who (if they got their way) would ban everybody without an ATPL from flying IFR. I am certain that if it wasn't for ICAO, European GA would have been stuffed long ago.
There is a possibility (obviously I hope I am wrong) that in 20 years' time the only GA in Europe will be the "ultralight sports" stuff, buzzing around between farm strips at 500ft AGL, and the rest will be confined to the islands i.e. the USA, Australia, NZ, plus perhaps India and China if they play things over there the right way and follow the U.S. model.