ADF/DME Carriage Requirements AGAIN

[denhamflyer]

What is the ACTUAL law regarding carriage of equipment in controlled airspace. I thought I knew this but having read some comments recently I looked it up again. To find some conflicting information. Now before we get lots of should and stupid if you dont... I would like to clarify the actual law.

The AIP seems to be clear - GEN 1.5.3 says VOR+DME+ADF plus some wording allowing ATC to provide special exemptions per flight. This is what I understood.

BUT reading the ANO we get what seems to be the same except:-

Article 20(2) SCHEDULE 5 paragraph 5(e) when flying under Instrument Flight Rules within controlled airspace and not required to comply with paragraph (5)(a) above ( 5 (a) is IFR for PUBLIC TRANSPORT). Then ONLY scale A = Two Way Radio is required.

This appears to mean non-public transport flights for UK registered aircraft dont need ADF/DME?? Am I reading this correctly or am I having a bad day...

Now I have always been told the ANO is the LAW vs AIP so can some legal beagles clarify this?

[Islander2]

You're looking at the wrong paragraph of ANO Schedule 5.

Para 1 (a) stipulates SSR, ADF, DME & VOR for all aircraft flying under IFR in U.K. controlled airspace (subject, as you noted, to certain specified exemptions).

[denhamflyer]

Im not sure I agree - if so then paragraph 5 would not need to exist in its current form. To me I read this as more specific than 1 and that it specifically refers to UK Registered aircraft ( 5 All aircraft registered in the United Kingdom, wherever they may be—) i.e. it should read outside the United Kingdom if the UK airspace was not to be included.

I stand to be corrected.

[Contacttower]

Had you read this at the bottom of page 2 of the AIP document you linked?

1.2.6.1 State aircraft are exempt from the requirement for carriage of RNAV equipment. No other general exemption from these
requirements will be granted, but, in very special circumstances, relaxation of the requirements, for a single flight, may be approved by

the appropriate ATC Unit (see paragraph 1.3.3 for exemptions from the carriage of SSR for limited periods).

My understanding of the law would be that you can fly IFR in CAS in the UK on G-reg without ADF/VOR/DME as long as it's not Public transport.

[Islander2]

i.e. it should read outside the United Kingdom if the UK airspace was not to be included.

Equally, paragraph 1 should read 'excluding aircraft registered in the United Kingdom' if they weren't to be included!

I agree it's ambiguous.

[denhamflyer]

Thanks Contacttower I had read the paragraph but for some stupid reason I read RNAV=Airways RNAV=GNSS. So missed the bleeding obvious.

Interesting that there is an assumption by many that VOR/DME/ADF was a requirement. But they must be flying N-Reg

[High Wing Drifter]

Schedule 5, para 1a says to me that you need ADF, VOR and DME when IFR in CAS for any flight unless specifically exempt.

[Islander2]

Thanks Contacttower I had read the paragraph but for some stupid reason I read RNAV=Airways RNAV=GNSS. So missed the bleeding obvious.

Not so fast!

That paragraph in AIP Gen 1.5.3 is irrelevant ... it doesn't apply. 'State aircraft' is not an alternative term for 'UK-registered aircraft'. Both the ANO and the AIP use the term 'UK-registered' when that's what they mean. The ANO defines 'State aircraft' as aircraft engaged in military, customs, police or similar services. Furthermore, RNAV is NOT used in the AIP (including within 1.5.3) as alternative terminology for individual ADF, DME, VOR sets.

Everything that I've seen the CAA write on this subject, especially at the time that FM Immunity became a requirement, suggests they believe (in the absence of a court ruling) that section 2 paragraph 1 of Schedule 5 applies equally to G-reg aeroplanes.

The other thing to note is that Schedule 5 specifically contemplates that an aircraft could be flying in a combination of the prescribed circumstances ... in other words it is NOT a question of choosing between 1(a) and 5(e), they both apply and both sets of requirements must be met (although the preamble to Schedule 5 notes that the scales of equipment don't need to be duplicated in those circumstances - which in this case I would interpret as you not needing 2 lots of scale A).

[Contacttower]

That paragraph in AIP Gen 1.5.3 is irrelevant ... it doesn't apply. 'State aircraft' is not an alternative term for 'UK-registered aircraft'. Both the ANO and the AIP use the term 'UK-registered' when that's what they mean. The ANO defines 'State aircraft' as aircraft engaged in military, customs, police or similar services. Furthermore, RNAV is NOT used in the AIP (including within 1.5.3) as alternative terminology for individual ADF, DME, VOR sets.

You've got me there, but...

(1) All aircraft (other than gliders) within the United Kingdom—

(a) when flying under Instrument Flight Rules within controlled airspace

next to (a) it lists VOR/DME/ADF as requirements

But further down the page it says:

(5) All aircraft registered in the United Kingdom, wherever they may be—

(e) when flying under Instrument Flight Rules within controlled airspace and not required to comply with paragraph (5)(a) above

(5)(a) refers to public transport and next to (e) it quite clearly indicates simply a two way radio.


One intepretation (although a rather stupid one) is that G-reg aircraft can operate IFR in CAS, as long as not in the UK.

[High Wing Drifter]

What it is saying is that all aircraft in the UK regardless of state of registration are subject to Schedule 5 para 1(a) (ADF, VOR, DME) are required.

All UK registered aircraft that are not public transport flying IFR in CAS in another state (other than the UK) are subject to that state's requirements, but the ANO says that they must have at least equipment scale A (a radio).

[Islander2]

One intepretation (although a rather stupid one) is that G-reg aircraft can operate IFR in CAS, as long as not in the UK.

Well (assuming you mean without ADF/DME/VOR) that's one interpretation ... and IMHO it's the correct one - subject to any more onerous laws of the state in question. The only alternative interpretation (possibly even more stupid) is that overseas-registered aircraft are subject to a more onerous equipment regime in UK airspace than are UK-registered aircraft.

Taken individually, it's absolutely clear that 1(a) and 5(e), as drafted, are mutually exclusive for non-PT, G-reg operation under IFR in CAS in UK airspace. If a choice is necessary, only a court could determine which should prevail!

But, as I pointed out in my previous post, they don't have to be taken individually and a choice isn't necessary. Indeed, the preamble to Schedule 5 specifically contemplates that they may BOTH apply!

Oh, and HWD:

What it is saying is that ... all UK registered aircraft that are not public transport flying IFR in CAS in another state (other than the UK) are subject to that state's requirements, but the ANO says that they must have at least equipment scale A (a radio).

That is NOT what it says, that's your interpretation! 'Wherever they may be' clearly includes the UK and so it does not say (although maybe it was meant to!) 'other than the UK'.

[Contacttower]

Well (assuming you mean without ADF/DME/VOR) that's one interpretation ... and IMHO it's the correct one - subject to any more onerous laws of the state in question.

That is what I meant.

That is NOT what it says, that's your interpretation! 'Wherever they may be' clearly includes the UK and so it does not say (although maybe it was meant to!) 'other than the UK'.

Well quite, HWD's post sounds very sensible and probably is the 'answer' but what it actually says appears to contradict itself.

[High Wing Drifter]

My interpretation (as cheerfully coined by Islander) identifies the most restrictive (or limiting if you prefer) case. So if you are in CAS and IFR in the UK, then regardless of your state of registration you fall under Sched 5 1a. If you are UK registered not PT in CAS under IFR then you fall under Sched 5e regardless of what country you are in. If you happen to be in the UK, then you have to add Shed 1a to Shed 5e to find your requirement. It just so happens that in this case they both duplicate the scale A requirement. I don't see where they contradict each other.

[DFC]

The AIP GEN 1.5 is the reference and is clear and easy to understand.

Why do you bother with the ANO?

Are you going to spend the same amount of time reading the Legal regulations published by the French Government before you fly there?......good luck if you are.

Does everyone who trawls through the ANO looking for answers that are published for them in the AIP put down the highway code booklet so that they can read several road traffic acts and various related instrments and bye laws?

The AIP is given legal status by the AViation Acts and the ANO because everything in it is "notified".

If you follow the AIP, you will never fall foul of the law.

Finally, yes, ADF is required for IFR flight in the UK's controlled airspace below FL245. The very good reason for that is that there is still enroute navigation that uses NDB to define position and many airfields use it as part of the initial/intermediate/final/missed approach procedure

Regards,

DFC

[Contacttower]

The only alternative interpretation (possibly even more stupid) is that overseas-registered aircraft are subject to a more onerous equipment regime in UK airspace than are UK-registered aircraft.

Having read it again I'm starting to think that maybe this the answer...surely though this has been answered before? Although I couldn't find anything on the search. (Why can't they scrap the four word seach minimum?...Its such a pain in such a acronym dominated activity. )

[n5296s]

Finally, yes, ADF is required for IFR flight in the UK's controlled airspace below FL245. The very good reason for that is that there is still enroute navigation that uses NDB to define position and many airfields use it as part of the initial/intermediate/final/missed approach procedure

That doesn't seem a "very good reason" at all. GPS can do a perfectly fine job of navigating with respect to the position of an NDB. (Of course it can also do a perfectly fine job of telling you how far you are from a VOR).

I'm puzzled as to whether this requirement (and specifically the non-allowance of GPS as an alternative) stems from (a) inertia of the "what was good enough for my grandfather better be good enough for you" variety or (b) a sort of anti-US-imperialism sentiment because GPS is run by the US: "can't trust those wretched yankees, bunch of cads".

Of course in the US GPS is permitted as an alternative to both ADF and DME. Which, to anyone who has ever tried to fly an approach solely by ADF, will be recognised as a Good Thing.

n5296s

[IO540]

A quick look at some other AIPs at the Eurocontrol EAD website suggests an ADF requirement is not common although Sweden requires not just an ADF but also, like the USA, an ELT transmitting on 121.5 and the soon to be defunct 243MHz.

The equipment list for each country is in the country's AIP GEN 1.5 and for Switzerland it returns the interesting result that a BRNAV GPS removes the need for an ADF for all IFR flight (ADF is still explicitly required for approaches containing NDBs, as one might expect).

Germany requires an ADF only for approaches which use an NDB, which makes sense.

France does not require an ADF.

The trend for most of the "up and coming" European countries such as the Czech Rep is to not require an ADF.

So, the UK is the odd one out, with a gold plated requirement for ADF enroute.

Most countries do however require a DME and - unlike in the USA, and with the Swiss exception - a GPS cannot be used instead

I don't but ANY justification for an ADF other than to fly approaches that use an NDB, but unfortunately that reason is strong enough to have it fitted to make the plane at all useful for IFR.

(edit: apologies for broken links - the Eurocontrol website changes URLs every few days)

[bookworm]

Well (assuming you mean without ADF/DME/VOR) that's one interpretation ...

I'm surprised you find any ambiguity in this. For example, aircraft required to comply with Art 54 aren't automatically exempted from Art 52. Why in Scehdule 5 should an aircraft required to comply with sub-paragraph 5 be exempted from sub-paragraph 1?

Any aircraft (other than gliders) flying IFR in controlled airspace in the UK requires scales A, E1 and F

Any aircraft (other than gliders) registered in the UK requires flying for PT under IFR requires scale A, C, E1 and H

Any aircraft (other than gliders) registered in the UK requires flying under IFR requires scale A.

Therefore:

a UK registered aircraft under IFR in controlled airspace in the UK flying for PT requires scales A, C, E1, F and H. But it is not required to duplicate equipment merely because F and H both appear, hence since F is a subset of H, this is equivalent to A, C, E1 and H.

a UK registered aircraft IFR in controlled airspace in the UK not flying for PT requires scales A, E1, and F.

[scooter boy]

N5296S - How right you are!

"this requirement (and specifically the non-allowance of GPS as an alternative) stems from (a) inertia of the "what was good enough for my grandfather better be good enough for you" variety or (b) a sort of anti-US-imperialism sentiment because GPS is run by the US: "can't trust those wretched yankees, bunch of cads."



Even with ADF/DME fitted, I know I trust the GPS more!

Sad though that new N-reg imports require this very expensive (£10000+)outdated box to clutter up the panel and add extra weight.

Hopefully our regs will change and we will move forwards in line with the more progressive aviating states in the world.

Here's hoping,

SB

[DFC]

In the UK for the time being, VOR, DME and ADF are the basic navigation aids that every IFR flight in controlled airspace will have.

The extra requirement to have BRNAV equipment only applies above FL95 or on certain routes.

A fully approved panel monuted GPS that meets BRNAV requirements (PRNAV in some cases plus approach procedures etc) and which always has a fully up to date database is at the moment considered to be extra equipment which is not necessary to fly at the lower levels IFR.

Regards,

DFC