G-XXXX ready for departure
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It's not so much the language, rather the: I wouldn't want you working for me, I wouldn't work for you, my dad is bigger than your dad, childishness.
At the end of the day, the two protagonists are hardly likely to be in the same employ - BUT and it is a bloody big BUT, if Fuji rocks up at CM's ATZ - they will be working together for the benefit and safety of the rest of sharing the sky!
Like I said some time ago, this should have been allowed to die.
Mods - can you lock this now?
At the end of the day, the two protagonists are hardly likely to be in the same employ - BUT and it is a bloody big BUT, if Fuji rocks up at CM's ATZ - they will be working together for the benefit and safety of the rest of sharing the sky!
Like I said some time ago, this should have been allowed to die.
Mods - can you lock this now?
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Lock it and stop the fun 
Who cares who says what really, as long as it is clear, concise and accurate and doesn't absorb too much bandwidth?
It is pretty rubbish amongst many professional pilots too....
Anyway as I am cleared for an immediate into LAX I must go....
Who cares who says what really, as long as it is clear, concise and accurate and doesn't absorb too much bandwidth?
The overall standard of RT among private pilots is pretty rubbish most of the time.
Anyway as I am cleared for an immediate into LAX I must go....
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...and after reading this thread, can one still wonder why ATC (allegedly) take a dim view of GA pilots? 
Gents, CAP413 is there for everyone to study (not just "read"). If you think something in it might need improving, then why not discuss your case with the CAA?
Can't see the point of arguing about it here, we're all coming across as a bunch of armchair experts
As for Chilli, I personally thought that was a magnific rant
Now, if you could tell me where you control... I have a feeling anyone going there in their 172 on the next few days will be spending the afternoon doing 360s waiting for their landing clearance 
Gents, CAP413 is there for everyone to study (not just "read"). If you think something in it might need improving, then why not discuss your case with the CAA?
Can't see the point of arguing about it here, we're all coming across as a bunch of armchair experts
As for Chilli, I personally thought that was a magnific rant
Now, if you could tell me where you control... I have a feeling anyone going there in their 172 on the next few days will be spending the afternoon doing 360s waiting for their landing clearance
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Gents, CAP413 is there for everyone to study (not just "read"). If you think something in it might need improving, then why not discuss your case with the CAA?
The trouble is that CAP413 does not always mirror ATC's own standards.
"Fly Radar Heading" - where will you find that in CAP413?
The trouble is that CAP413 does not always mirror ATC's own standards.
"Fly Radar Heading" - where will you find that in CAP413?
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Who cares who says what really, as long as it is clear, concise and accurate and doesn't absorb too much bandwidth?
And most pilots' RT seems to be quite reasonable, IMHO. We communicate, we get where we want to go, we don't upset too many people too much of the time. What more is required? Most students and new PPLs are scared enough of the radio anyway, without feeling as though they're being criticised the moment they open their mouths. They improve with practice, when they're not scared. Luckily, out there in the world most pilots and most ATCOs are very tolerant and so long as they understand what anyone is trying to communicate, no-one worries.
This thread has got completely out of hand. I'm just glad that PPRuNe Rage doesn't translate into Air Rage, or I wouldn't want to be sharing the skies with many of you at the moment, and I certainly wouldn't want to be flying into any airfield where Chilli was the ATCO. After all, no helicopter is over....whatever massive size it was he stated!
I too think this thread should be closed. Unless.......people are merely using it to let off steam, which is kind of fun sometimes, isn't it? I think they must be doing that, as the alternative - that people are really getting this het up over the use or otherwise of a few words - is too bizarre to contemplate....even on PPRuNe.
The trouble is that CAP413 does not always mirror ATC's own standards.
It's drifting a little from the main thread topic but as one who has instructed extensively at both A/G and full ATC aerodromes I can tell you that many students/pilots who have trained exclusively at one or the other face great challenges with RT when they venture into the "other" environment!
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That may be true in certain cases but tell me where CAP 413 says I should say "Ready for immediate" but it does say the call is "Ready for Departure"
It doesn't.
But that is not the point.
If one is going to be judgmental and complain about deviations from standard phraseology (bear in mind that I agree with CM's argument, if not style), then the waters are made muddier when different standards exist and I don't think that LH2 can fully make his point under those circumstances.
That's all I was saying.
You also said
I can tell you that many students/pilots who have trained exclusively at one or the other face great challenges with RT when they venture into the "other" environment!
Well if you look at post #97, G-EMMA with a recent solo says
It seems to me (taking into account lack of experience etc) that those that do learn at A/G fields adjust better to the ATC environment than those who learn in the ATC environment do to visiting an A/G field.
So it appears that you are wrong
It doesn't.
But that is not the point.
If one is going to be judgmental and complain about deviations from standard phraseology (bear in mind that I agree with CM's argument, if not style), then the waters are made muddier when different standards exist and I don't think that LH2 can fully make his point under those circumstances.
That's all I was saying.
You also said
I can tell you that many students/pilots who have trained exclusively at one or the other face great challenges with RT when they venture into the "other" environment!
Well if you look at post #97, G-EMMA with a recent solo says
It seems to me (taking into account lack of experience etc) that those that do learn at A/G fields adjust better to the ATC environment than those who learn in the ATC environment do to visiting an A/G field.
So it appears that you are wrong
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What a lovely way to spend the last hour of work on a Friday - thanks everyone!!
It may have been discussed before.. but a lot of people on here G-EMMA included are debating the meaning of "Ready for Departure" at an A/G field. What it means is "I'm too stupid to understand the service I'm under and what's required of me".
When you're ready to take of at an A/G field.. report lining up (or entering and backtracking).. and then report "taking off".. unless you're a knobhead/c*nt (sorry I'm with CM.. a horrid word, but sometimes the cap just fits) in which case you say "rolling" coz you think it makes you sound good!!
FISOs/AG ops can be an invaluable tool to the decision making process.. they can also just be a bunch of tools.
As for Chilli's aggressive point of view? well in my opinion he's correct. Fuji, would you give someone a bit less forthright the job? even if they had no idea what they were all talking about?
It may have been discussed before.. but a lot of people on here G-EMMA included are debating the meaning of "Ready for Departure" at an A/G field. What it means is "I'm too stupid to understand the service I'm under and what's required of me".
When you're ready to take of at an A/G field.. report lining up (or entering and backtracking).. and then report "taking off".. unless you're a knobhead/c*nt (sorry I'm with CM.. a horrid word, but sometimes the cap just fits) in which case you say "rolling" coz you think it makes you sound good!!
FISOs/AG ops can be an invaluable tool to the decision making process.. they can also just be a bunch of tools.
As for Chilli's aggressive point of view? well in my opinion he's correct. Fuji, would you give someone a bit less forthright the job? even if they had no idea what they were all talking about?
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G-EMMA, if the brief sheet you're having *only* tells you to report "ready for departure", nothing else, before entering the active runway and opening the throttle, make a printout of CAP413 pages 4-28 and surrounding pages, and discuss this with your instructor and/or the person who wrote the brief.
CAP413 clearly specifies the call "taking off" or "lining up" in the departure sequence.
CAP413 clearly specifies the call "taking off" or "lining up" in the departure sequence.
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
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Good grief! I just looked in here after some weeks of relaxation, and I see things haven't improved a lot.
There is one place where I will tell ATC where I am, and that's the hold for runway 06 at Southend. It can't be seen from the tower, and the cameras (if there are any) don't seem to work. So there, I'll say "G-XX at C1 ready for departure".
I was told by my very wise instructor, many moons ago, never to say "Ready immediate". That sounds like a demand for an immediate, and ATC makes those decisions. I don't need to annoy ATC by demanding things.
What I do say, very occasionally, is "Ready in turn" if the aircraft in front is sitting there not doing a lot and hasn't called "Ready". That sometimes elicits the response "Can you get past G-YY?"
I was also taught not to say "Ready for departure" if there's someone on short final. It might give them a moment of panic. Either say it when the aircraft is a fair way out (when maybe you could accept an immediate and take off before that one lands), or wait till it passes you.
There is one place where I will tell ATC where I am, and that's the hold for runway 06 at Southend. It can't be seen from the tower, and the cameras (if there are any) don't seem to work. So there, I'll say "G-XX at C1 ready for departure".
I was told by my very wise instructor, many moons ago, never to say "Ready immediate". That sounds like a demand for an immediate, and ATC makes those decisions. I don't need to annoy ATC by demanding things.
What I do say, very occasionally, is "Ready in turn" if the aircraft in front is sitting there not doing a lot and hasn't called "Ready". That sometimes elicits the response "Can you get past G-YY?"
I was also taught not to say "Ready for departure" if there's someone on short final. It might give them a moment of panic. Either say it when the aircraft is a fair way out (when maybe you could accept an immediate and take off before that one lands), or wait till it passes you.
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I think we all should be reminded of the comment made by bookworm:
The comment I made was because I consider the addition of "immediate" in some circumstances is fully compliant with the CAP. I dont see how its inclusion could possibly introduce any ambiguity what so ever.
Still never the less I am sorry if any of you feel I was drawn into a slanging match with Chilli, chuffed for providing a little light entertainment on a Friday afternoon for those who took it in that spirit, and no worse for drawing my old friend Chilli back into the debate with:
I wasn't going to post any more, but Fuji's comments just beggar belief.
I am ready for an immediate glass of wine now.
Obviously, it is not practicable to detail phraseology examples suitable for every situation. However, if standard phrases are adhered to when composing a message, any possible ambiguity will be reduced to a minimum. Only when standard phraseology cannot serve an intended transmission, shall plain language be used.
Still never the less I am sorry if any of you feel I was drawn into a slanging match with Chilli, chuffed for providing a little light entertainment on a Friday afternoon
for those who took it in that spirit, and no worse for drawing my old friend Chilli back into the debate with:I wasn't going to post any more, but Fuji's comments just beggar belief.
I am ready for an immediate glass of wine now
.
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As am I - shame I'm working tomorrow (oh $hit I hear some cry )
But I'll leave the last word to someone else
)But I'll leave the last word to someone else
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Going to close this for now. I have been out all day and returned to a few PM's and emails saying how bad this thread is.
I am off out to the pub now so have not got time to have a good look at it, I will close it now and return to it sometime in the morning and make a decision then on whether to keep it open or not.....
I am off out to the pub now so have not got time to have a good look at it, I will close it now and return to it sometime in the morning and make a decision then on whether to keep it open or not.....
