FIS and Oxford AIAA...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FIS and Oxford AIAA...
Q & A....
You're in the Oxford AIAA, VFR in class G, not en route but round trip from whichever field. You're doing a bit of air work and sight seeing(Benson/Thame/Aylesbury way)
Do you just squawk 7000/C and talk to nobody?
Do you call Brize Radar, advise them of your operating area and altitude block and request FIS only? (OK, you might be just east of the AIAA)
(PS: not intending MATZ penetration)
You're in the Oxford AIAA, VFR in class G, not en route but round trip from whichever field. You're doing a bit of air work and sight seeing(Benson/Thame/Aylesbury way)
Do you just squawk 7000/C and talk to nobody?
Do you call Brize Radar, advise them of your operating area and altitude block and request FIS only? (OK, you might be just east of the AIAA)
(PS: not intending MATZ penetration)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: surrey
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would get a FIS from Brize and squawk 7000 (with Mode C if I had it, but I don't).
It is quite legit to say something like "sightseeing in the Aylesbury area, will remain below 3000 feet and outside controlled airspace" or somesuch that places no particular restriction on yourself but gives the controller a bit of a clue what to expect.
It is quite legit to say something like "sightseeing in the Aylesbury area, will remain below 3000 feet and outside controlled airspace" or somesuch that places no particular restriction on yourself but gives the controller a bit of a clue what to expect.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Witney
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Get all the help you can from whoever,
but it's a very busy bit of AIAA - glider superhighway from Didcot up past Bicester,the WOTG and Hinton parachute zones, Brize zone squeezing you on one side, Gliding at Haddenham, Bicester, Hinton, Halton, Air Cadet motorgliders from Abingdon plus all the spamcan traffic for Kidlington etc etc
I would doubt that an FIS could guarantee to keep you away from all that lot on a sunny weekend so KEEP A GOOD LOOKOUT! Let the passengers do the sightseeing.
but it's a very busy bit of AIAA - glider superhighway from Didcot up past Bicester,the WOTG and Hinton parachute zones, Brize zone squeezing you on one side, Gliding at Haddenham, Bicester, Hinton, Halton, Air Cadet motorgliders from Abingdon plus all the spamcan traffic for Kidlington etc etc
I would doubt that an FIS could guarantee to keep you away from all that lot on a sunny weekend so KEEP A GOOD LOOKOUT! Let the passengers do the sightseeing.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't see the point in asking for a FIS, particuarly if it's a busy piece of sky. Ask for a RIS, and get all the help you can. I've never been refused a RIS from Brize Norton.....well....I've only asked 3 times, but got it the 3 times.
dp
dp
Interesting, dp. If it was CAVOK, would you still ask for an RIS, regardless of other factors?
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 2,212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by dublinpilot
I've never been refused a RIS from Brize Norton.....well....I've only asked 3 times, but got it the 3 times.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
Age: 74
Posts: 1,684
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
...and
Sedburgh said:
but it's a very busy bit of AIAA - glider superhighway from Didcot up past Bicester,the WOTG and Hinton parachute zones, Brize zone squeezing you on one side, Gliding at Haddenham, Bicester, Hinton, Halton, Air Cadet motorgliders from Abingdon plus all the spamcan traffic for Kidlington etc etc
I would doubt that an FIS could guarantee to keep you away from all that lot on a sunny weekend so KEEP A GOOD LOOKOUT! Let the passengers do the sightseeing.
...to which I'd add up to a dozen aircraft at a time from Denham and Wycombe who use this area for upper air work.
We regularly carry an additional student in the back as another pair of eyes - very useful today with a large number of aircraft working all the levels and headings you could imagine.
TheOddOne
but it's a very busy bit of AIAA - glider superhighway from Didcot up past Bicester,the WOTG and Hinton parachute zones, Brize zone squeezing you on one side, Gliding at Haddenham, Bicester, Hinton, Halton, Air Cadet motorgliders from Abingdon plus all the spamcan traffic for Kidlington etc etc
I would doubt that an FIS could guarantee to keep you away from all that lot on a sunny weekend so KEEP A GOOD LOOKOUT! Let the passengers do the sightseeing.
...to which I'd add up to a dozen aircraft at a time from Denham and Wycombe who use this area for upper air work.
We regularly carry an additional student in the back as another pair of eyes - very useful today with a large number of aircraft working all the levels and headings you could imagine.
TheOddOne
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: surrey
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My reasoning for suggesting FIS rather than RIS in this case is that it is hard for the controller to determine conflicting traffic if you are on a sightseeing flight and not flying straight lines.
My sightseeing tends to involve zig-zagging around the sky, circling for photos and regular altitude changes. Keeping a really good look-out is essential.
When it comes to avoiding parachutes and gliders there is little practical difference between a FIS and RIS from Brize in any case. Other units may differ.
My sightseeing tends to involve zig-zagging around the sky, circling for photos and regular altitude changes. Keeping a really good look-out is essential.
When it comes to avoiding parachutes and gliders there is little practical difference between a FIS and RIS from Brize in any case. Other units may differ.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting, dp. If it was CAVOK, would you still ask for an RIS, regardless of other factors?
With a FIS all the controller promises to give me is info that might affect my flight. There is no promise of traffic info, (except if the controller becomes away of an imminent collision, but he's not promising to keep a look out for that). There is no promise to pass me traffic info. So if my purpose in asking for a FIS was to get traffic info, then I'm asking for the wrong thing, and I believe I should actually ask for what I want. In relation to a RIS on a CAVOK day, then yes I most certainly would. It's the cavok days that EVERYONE goes flying. Those are the days that you need eyes in the back of your head
, and probably the most likely time to have a mid air. 
The skies tend to be full of pilots that haven't flown for a while, taking advantage of the nice weather. 
Pilots that haven't flown for awhile tend to take more concentration to fly the aircraft, and have less available to keep a good lookout, making a mid air more likely. 
So for me, I'll always ask for a RIS, irrespective of the weather. If the controller is to busy they will of course refuse my request, but I don't see any harm in asking. There are many who will no doubt say that you should only ask for it, if you're in IMC, but I don't believe there has ever been a mid air in IMC in the UK? Certainly not in recent times. I believe they have all been in VMC. I'll take my RIS in VMC if I can get it
Obviously didn't attend the PPL/IR meeting at Oxford last Saturday
dp
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 2,212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Or have I got a wrong impression from your post, and it was actually something else?
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=296104
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oxford
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Since the CAA chart for the area labels the AIAA:
I'd have said you would be wrong not to give them at least a listening watch, and if you're going to listen, you might as well have a FIS.
The list given above forgot up to half a dozen Tutors from RAF Benson operating in the same area doing GH/aerobatics, too... and training from the Benson flying club...
Tim
(PS edited to add - it's NOT a MATZ - a very common mistake I hear on the radio (pilots ask for MATZ penetration on 124.275 rather than Zone transit on 119.0))
Oxford AIAA SFC-5000' Brize Radar 124.275
The list given above forgot up to half a dozen Tutors from RAF Benson operating in the same area doing GH/aerobatics, too... and training from the Benson flying club...
Tim
(PS edited to add - it's NOT a MATZ - a very common mistake I hear on the radio (pilots ask for MATZ penetration on 124.275 rather than Zone transit on 119.0))
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for feedback guys. Will definitely listen out or request FIS. I did post a request on the ATC forum about LARS radar control and the response I got back is below:
Pilots undertaking this sort of activity who do not communicate present a nightmare to us as we have to assume you are unknown traffic and apply standard separtion aginst u and RAS traffic.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 433
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I may well have this wrong but presumably RIS only provides seperation and traffic information relating to stuff that paints a blip on the radar screen ? So, many gliders and microlights aren't going to show up anyway......back to keeping a good lookout again!
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Swanwick
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dont understand why so many people advocate looking a gift horse in the mouth. IF I am in within coverage of a unit mandated to provide LARS I will ask for a RIS everytime, why not stack the odds in your favour......... Just because you are in reciept of a RIS does not mean that you lessen your lookout! Maybe that ac that is on a constant bearing that is difficult for you to spot is painting loud & clear on a radar display at said LARS unit.
As for FIS, below is the definintion of a FIS along with the conditions that apply to it. (Military ATC... Civilian may be slightly different
)
FIS
FIS is a non radar service provided, either seperately or in conjunction with other services for the purpose of supplying information useful for the safe & efficient conduct of flight. Under FIS the following conditions apply:
1. Provision of the service includes information about weather, changes of servicability of facilities, conditions at aerodromes and any other information pertinent to safety.
2. The controller may attempt to identify the flight for monitoring & co-ordination purposes only. Such identifiation does not imply that a radar service is being provided or that the controller will continuously monitor the flight. Pilots are to be left in no doubt that they are not recieving a radar service.
3. Controllers are not responsible for seperating or sequencing aircraft.
4. Where a controller suspects from whatever source, that a flight is in dangerous proximity to another aircraft, a warning is to be issued to the pilot. It is accepted that this information may be incomplete & the controller cannot assume responsibility for its issuance at all times or for its accuracy.
DD
As for FIS, below is the definintion of a FIS along with the conditions that apply to it. (Military ATC... Civilian may be slightly different
)FIS
FIS is a non radar service provided, either seperately or in conjunction with other services for the purpose of supplying information useful for the safe & efficient conduct of flight. Under FIS the following conditions apply:
1. Provision of the service includes information about weather, changes of servicability of facilities, conditions at aerodromes and any other information pertinent to safety.
2. The controller may attempt to identify the flight for monitoring & co-ordination purposes only. Such identifiation does not imply that a radar service is being provided or that the controller will continuously monitor the flight. Pilots are to be left in no doubt that they are not recieving a radar service.
3. Controllers are not responsible for seperating or sequencing aircraft.
4. Where a controller suspects from whatever source, that a flight is in dangerous proximity to another aircraft, a warning is to be issued to the pilot. It is accepted that this information may be incomplete & the controller cannot assume responsibility for its issuance at all times or for its accuracy.
DD
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Swanwick
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CM
I couldnt agree more, been trying to "educate" some Mil controllers re FIS for years, we just make hard work for ourselves and confuse some pilots by this tendancy to be "over helpful" to FIS traffic. This increased workload resulting from applying a "super FIS" then reduces the capacity to provide RIS & so FIS gets imposed instead quoting controller workload.... Pilots are then often unable to avail themselves of a RIS in areas where it would be very helpful .... as in the Oxford AIAA! Talk about the tail wagging the dog!
DD
I couldnt agree more, been trying to "educate" some Mil controllers re FIS for years, we just make hard work for ourselves and confuse some pilots by this tendancy to be "over helpful" to FIS traffic. This increased workload resulting from applying a "super FIS" then reduces the capacity to provide RIS & so FIS gets imposed instead quoting controller workload.... Pilots are then often unable to avail themselves of a RIS in areas where it would be very helpful .... as in the Oxford AIAA! Talk about the tail wagging the dog!
DD
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FIS is a waste of time in this instance, and will lead you into a false sense of security. Keep your eyes open, squawk 7000 and if you want, call for a RIS.
I regularly fly in the Yeovilton AIAA and hardly ever call them, but maintain a listening watch. The times I do call them are the times that I want a RIS, (going from A to B, hazy or something special going on, - exercise for example)....
I regularly fly in the Yeovilton AIAA and hardly ever call them, but maintain a listening watch. The times I do call them are the times that I want a RIS, (going from A to B, hazy or something special going on, - exercise for example)....
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Somewhere near CPT
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Talk to Oxford if you're anywhere near them - and especially if you are to the north as they may have jet traffic coming in on the ILS for 19. If not talking to Oxford - then definately talk to Brize. (of course - if you're to the south west of Oxford below 3500ft Alt. then you will be talking to Brize - either during the flight for a RIS / FIS or after when they want to know why you bust their zone !)
As someone else said - talk to somone ! It's a busy piece of sky so the more help you get and the more information everyone else is able to receive, the better.
As someone else said - talk to somone ! It's a busy piece of sky so the more help you get and the more information everyone else is able to receive, the better.