Value of Used Aircraft
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With all these references to TB20, SR22, Mooney, Commander, etc, I thought I'd better put in a plug for the Beech A36 Bonanza, the "Rolls-Royce of IFR SEP tourers!"
Vested interest? What vested interest?
Vested interest? What vested interest?
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I presume of the options the DA40 would be the cheapest to maintain? Composite frame, prorata engine warranty, solid state avionics, fixed landing gear etc ?
Commander/TB20 look great but would hate to foot the maintenance bills? Or am I wrong?
VT
Commander/TB20 look great but would hate to foot the maintenance bills? Or am I wrong?
VT
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In nearly 6 years with the TB20, from new, my only significant bill so far has been a new battery, at about £300, and that one lasted a lot longer than it should have.
There was a large amount of in-warranty work on the mostly American-made avionics, the reason for which was never determined but I have one or two ideas... but all planes have much the same avionics, and if you go to glass then a whole lot could go at the same time. The only way to definitely avoid avionics suprises is to not have any avionics.
If you buy new, and it's a good proven design like a TB20, you should not expect major bills for 10-15 years. After that, airframe parts will start to go, and they are always expensive no matter what it is. £7000 Annuals can be normal for a very old C150...
So, buying something say 25 years old is merely trading initial expenditure for continuous expenditure. To get the best out of the initial depreciation, the best buys are well under 10 years old, and hangared. Damage caused during maintenance (usually the main reason for airframe damage) excepted, mine still looks like new.
I have never flown the Commander but looked at a number of them when looking in 2002, and all advice I got from maintenance shops was "avoid", due to maintenance complications resulting in long time spent on the ground. One I know of has been grounded for 6 months waiting for parts. I fly a lot and would find that absolutely unacceptable.
There was a large amount of in-warranty work on the mostly American-made avionics, the reason for which was never determined but I have one or two ideas... but all planes have much the same avionics, and if you go to glass then a whole lot could go at the same time. The only way to definitely avoid avionics suprises is to not have any avionics.
If you buy new, and it's a good proven design like a TB20, you should not expect major bills for 10-15 years. After that, airframe parts will start to go, and they are always expensive no matter what it is. £7000 Annuals can be normal for a very old C150...
So, buying something say 25 years old is merely trading initial expenditure for continuous expenditure. To get the best out of the initial depreciation, the best buys are well under 10 years old, and hangared. Damage caused during maintenance (usually the main reason for airframe damage) excepted, mine still looks like new.
I have never flown the Commander but looked at a number of them when looking in 2002, and all advice I got from maintenance shops was "avoid", due to maintenance complications resulting in long time spent on the ground. One I know of has been grounded for 6 months waiting for parts. I fly a lot and would find that absolutely unacceptable.
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It's true that some maintenance places avoid Commanders..it's happened to me. The reality is somewhat different however and I have not had any problems in 4 years of ownership (then again, not much has gone wrong as it's a relatively new one). ASG in Guernsey are fantastic when it comes to Commanders. Mann Aviation at Fairoaks also are pretty good.
The Commander factory is supplying parts again too.
The Commander factory is supplying parts again too.
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And if it does all three .... ?
Beech A36 Bonanza, the "Rolls-Royce of IFR SEP tourers!"
a good proven design like a TB20,
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Hampstead - as I wrote, I would not expect you to need any airframe parts for your Commander for another 10 years. But if you bought a 25 year old 112 or some such, the situation would likely be very different.
Sternone - the max demo x/w of 25kt is real, and the TB20 is easy to land. I am no great pilot but to date I have done just ONE go-around due to my "performance". All go-arounds were caused by traffic on runway, etc. In 700hrs on the type, I have never yet cancelled a flight or diverted due to destination surface wind. Parts have never been an issue; I have not needed any airframe parts but there are no reports AFAIK of parts keeping planes AOG for significant periods. Production has stopped so if e.g. you wrecked the composite roof on the TB20GT then you have a problem, but this is kind of hard to do... The elevator trim tab hinges last about 1000hrs and cost £600 and I have a spare set ready...
I did look at the A36 back in 2002 and decided the DOC would be about 50% higher than a TB20. It's a bigger plane. Obviously it is also more capable in terms of payload, and a turbo should give you a 25k ceiling. Whether the cost increment is worth it depends on the desired mission profile, and the same argument would apply to a TB21 which is a just a turbocharged TB20 but with a silly engine overhaul cost (it's a rare variant of the TIO-540).
Sternone - the max demo x/w of 25kt is real, and the TB20 is easy to land. I am no great pilot but to date I have done just ONE go-around due to my "performance". All go-arounds were caused by traffic on runway, etc. In 700hrs on the type, I have never yet cancelled a flight or diverted due to destination surface wind. Parts have never been an issue; I have not needed any airframe parts but there are no reports AFAIK of parts keeping planes AOG for significant periods. Production has stopped so if e.g. you wrecked the composite roof on the TB20GT then you have a problem, but this is kind of hard to do... The elevator trim tab hinges last about 1000hrs and cost £600 and I have a spare set ready...
I did look at the A36 back in 2002 and decided the DOC would be about 50% higher than a TB20. It's a bigger plane. Obviously it is also more capable in terms of payload, and a turbo should give you a 25k ceiling. Whether the cost increment is worth it depends on the desired mission profile, and the same argument would apply to a TB21 which is a just a turbocharged TB20 but with a silly engine overhaul cost (it's a rare variant of the TIO-540).
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IO540 - so why do people claim owning an aircraft is bottomless money pit? I was reckoning on spending a lot more on maintenance etc.
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IO540 - so why do people claim owning an aircraft is bottomless money pit? I was reckoning on spending a lot more on maintenance etc.
Firstly, because most people posting on pilot forums haven't got a clue what they are talking about.
Especially when it comes to type specific information. Most people have exactly zero experience of owning and just regurgitate old pilot forum rumours.
Those that have owned (look at the average age of the GA scene, c. 25 years) tend to have owned very old airframes, and they usually are bottomless pits for money. Buying an old plane for say £30k versus buying a new one for say £140k - the difference of £110k has to be sunk into a large pit somewhere... and that pit is called "maintenance". But if you bought one say 5 years old for say £80k, you should get 10 relatively cheap years.
I am happy to meet up with any prospective TB owner and show them my plane and my maintenance records and operating costs.
Buying a plane is the best thing I ever did - never regretted it for a second. Never regretted buying a new one either - it fits my mission profile better than anything else on the market, so I will keep it for so many years that the depreciation is largely irrelevant.
If you really worry about the long term depreciation, then forget buying anything and put your money on the stock market
After many years, you will be very rich, and then you will die, having done exactly nothing interesting.
Buy a boat, then you know what a bottemless money pit is...
Yeah but there are some worthwhile extras you can get while blowing away your fortune... I took this pic at Hvar, Croatia, a few weeks back. If only 1% of this money was spent on GA, we would have airports with gold plated toilets.
Firstly, because most people posting on pilot forums haven't got a clue what they are talking about.
Especially when it comes to type specific information. Most people have exactly zero experience of owning and just regurgitate old pilot forum rumours.
Those that have owned (look at the average age of the GA scene, c. 25 years) tend to have owned very old airframes, and they usually are bottomless pits for money. Buying an old plane for say £30k versus buying a new one for say £140k - the difference of £110k has to be sunk into a large pit somewhere... and that pit is called "maintenance". But if you bought one say 5 years old for say £80k, you should get 10 relatively cheap years.
I am happy to meet up with any prospective TB owner and show them my plane and my maintenance records and operating costs.
Buying a plane is the best thing I ever did - never regretted it for a second. Never regretted buying a new one either - it fits my mission profile better than anything else on the market, so I will keep it for so many years that the depreciation is largely irrelevant.
If you really worry about the long term depreciation, then forget buying anything and put your money on the stock market
After many years, you will be very rich, and then you will die, having done exactly nothing interesting.Buy a boat, then you know what a bottemless money pit is...
Yeah but there are some worthwhile extras you can get while blowing away your fortune... I took this pic at Hvar, Croatia, a few weeks back. If only 1% of this money was spent on GA, we would have airports with gold plated toilets.
Last edited by IO540; 2nd Oct 2007 at 11:00.
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I took this pic at Hvar, Croatia, a few weeks back
Hey, i never saw these kind of chicks lying on GA airplanes!!! It's not honest!! Wheee
