Inverted roll with C-172????
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My mate Dave sez its possible for a properly trained pilot to do a loop in a VP1 as long as you really tighten the seatbelt so you don't fall out and put some chewing gum over the pitot so that you don't break the ASI in the dive to get enough airspeed.
What d'ya think? VP1's are quite cheap so we could club together to get one and try it!
Hasn't this thread run for long enough?!!!
ZA
What d'ya think? VP1's are quite cheap so we could club together to get one and try it!
Hasn't this thread run for long enough?!!!
ZA
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...and what does your mate Dave use to make sure the oil dipstick doesn't come loose in the VP1 while he's looping it? 
Are you coming down to Lasham to for the Glidder vs Poorer match? I hear rumours of Pies....
Are you coming down to Lasham to for the Glidder vs Poorer match? I hear rumours of Pies....
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...and what does your mate Dave use to make sure the oil dipstick doesn't come loose in the VP1 while he's looping it?
Are you sure it's pies EH? Not curry? Have a great time down there, I have a prior commitment so can't be there.
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Ed,
In a properly looped VP1 the dipstick doesn't move.
Not coming to Lasham......... I can get pies up here in East Anglia, also its probably best to stay clear of the pies before looping a VP1.
(actually I'm showing my son around universities....and I wasn't invited!!)
ZA
In a properly looped VP1 the dipstick doesn't move.
Not coming to Lasham......... I can get pies up here in East Anglia, also its probably best to stay clear of the pies before looping a VP1.
(actually I'm showing my son around universities....and I wasn't invited!!)
ZA
Last edited by Zulu Alpha; 2nd Oct 2007 at 22:31.
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ZA - you wasn't inviyed, mate, sniff. I woz!
Any way, looping the Veep was a breeze, it was lom-choo-vac-ing the bugger that caused the prop thingy to go west (and east).
After that it was easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy - Vne on the dial covered a wide arc, so I went for the high end and then played lawn darts. Big flare at 50' and I got her down in three pieces.
Soz, you won't be at lash 'em. Ergo - I win!
Stik
Any way, looping the Veep was a breeze, it was lom-choo-vac-ing the bugger that caused the prop thingy to go west (and east).
After that it was easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy - Vne on the dial covered a wide arc, so I went for the high end and then played lawn darts. Big flare at 50' and I got her down in three pieces.
Soz, you won't be at lash 'em. Ergo - I win!
Stik
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What an interesting thread.
Not so much the content as the way some people have reacted to those with whom they disagree - or think they disagree because they didn't take the trouble to read a post properly. (eg Some responses to slim-slag's posts.)
Politely pointing out why (in your opinion) others are completely wrong is far more effective than resorting to 'idiot, feckwit, clown' abuse, more conducive to good discussion and enables people who want to learn to do so - a valuable part of PPRuNe.
If G-EMMA chooses to flounce off from PPRuNe because she doesn't like what she reads, let her go IMHO.
draccent
As a 35 hour student pilot, some might think you'd be stupid to try rolling anything unless under supervision.
H.
Not so much the content as the way some people have reacted to those with whom they disagree - or think they disagree because they didn't take the trouble to read a post properly. (eg Some responses to slim-slag's posts.)
Politely pointing out why (in your opinion) others are completely wrong is far more effective than resorting to 'idiot, feckwit, clown' abuse, more conducive to good discussion and enables people who want to learn to do so - a valuable part of PPRuNe.
If G-EMMA chooses to flounce off from PPRuNe because she doesn't like what she reads, let her go IMHO.
draccent
ok so while I would freaking LOVE to roll a 172.....NO! Its stupid.
H.
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Originally Posted by S&R
Any way, looping the Veep was a breeze, it was lom-choo-vac-ing the bugger that caused the prop thingy to go west (and east).
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Quote:
D SQDRN 97th IOTC speak for yourself
Knox
"a lot of people that utilize this forum do get the two maneuvers confused."
err.....
I don't think so.
Also not sure how anyone can do a proper aileron roll with a glass of water on the cowling still intact after the manoevure.
Yes I will speak for myself... thats what a forum is all about.
Maybe you'd like to write a brief description on each maneuver?
I wouldn't know about doing a "proper" aileron roll with a glass of water on the cowling.... don't see the point really and plus its already been done by bob hoover.
I'll also let my aeros instructor know that he hasn't taught me a proper aileron roll and will also suggest that he returns some of his trophies.
Knox.
D SQDRN 97th IOTC speak for yourself
Knox
"a lot of people that utilize this forum do get the two maneuvers confused."
err.....
I don't think so.
Also not sure how anyone can do a proper aileron roll with a glass of water on the cowling still intact after the manoevure.
Yes I will speak for myself... thats what a forum is all about.
Maybe you'd like to write a brief description on each maneuver?
I wouldn't know about doing a "proper" aileron roll with a glass of water on the cowling.... don't see the point really and plus its already been done by bob hoover.
I'll also let my aeros instructor know that he hasn't taught me a proper aileron roll and will also suggest that he returns some of his trophies.
Knox.
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Originally Posted by knox
I'll also let my aeros instructor know that he hasn't taught me a proper aileron roll and will also suggest that he returns some of his trophies.
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An aileron roll is a positive 1G maneuver, so pouring the liquid is still possible
Never heard that before. I know when I do an aileron roll it is defintely goes through -1g or thereabouts !!!
I was taught, pull up about 30 degs (> +1g) , centralise all controls, then stick hard left or right (< 1g) and hold it until until wings level, then centralise again, recover from the nose drop after wings level (> 1g).
A barrel roll on the other hand goes a bit like this.....30 degrees of heading off where you want to end up, nose down to accelerate to entry speed (if nescessary) then back sick (>> 1g) and aileron...In many books it is classified an advanced maneuvre.....
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aileron roll
Knox
you asked how I would do an aileron roll.
Two ways.
You can do a quick (but lazy) one in the way englishal describes.
The water will be lost off the cowling doing a roll this way because the speed of the rotation will make the glass slide off.
Or you can do a slow one like this: and you can put as many hesitation points in as you wish
no pull up
stick left or right as you wish
full or partial deflection as you wish
as the roll starts, the nose will start to drop
pick the nose up with some rudder. rudder use will be opposite to the stick deflection so you need to think about the secondary effects of yaw (from stick) and roll (from rudder).
the glass of water has long gone by this stage.
keep the roll going. less rudder is needed as you go inverted but you now need to push forward on the stick to keep straight and level.
still keeping the roll going, you will start to need some rudder again to pick the nose up, but this time the secondary effects of yaw and roll will be acting together in a different way from when the controls were crossed.
you having a good teacher, perhaps he can advise you on this?
and BTW, having a good teacher doesn't make you a good student.
I could have been taught by John Taylor or Andy Cubin, doesn't mean I'll ever be as good as them.
In neither scenario does the glass of water remain intact.
I think you're a bluffer Knox............
you asked how I would do an aileron roll.
Two ways.
You can do a quick (but lazy) one in the way englishal describes.
The water will be lost off the cowling doing a roll this way because the speed of the rotation will make the glass slide off.
Or you can do a slow one like this: and you can put as many hesitation points in as you wish
no pull up
stick left or right as you wish
full or partial deflection as you wish
as the roll starts, the nose will start to drop
pick the nose up with some rudder. rudder use will be opposite to the stick deflection so you need to think about the secondary effects of yaw (from stick) and roll (from rudder).
the glass of water has long gone by this stage.
keep the roll going. less rudder is needed as you go inverted but you now need to push forward on the stick to keep straight and level.
still keeping the roll going, you will start to need some rudder again to pick the nose up, but this time the secondary effects of yaw and roll will be acting together in a different way from when the controls were crossed.
you having a good teacher, perhaps he can advise you on this?
and BTW, having a good teacher doesn't make you a good student.
I could have been taught by John Taylor or Andy Cubin, doesn't mean I'll ever be as good as them.
In neither scenario does the glass of water remain intact.
I think you're a bluffer Knox............
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as the roll starts, the nose will start to drop
pick the nose up with some rudder. rudder use will be opposite to the stick deflection so you need to think about the secondary effects of yaw (from stick) and roll (from rudder).
the glass of water has long gone by this stage.
keep the roll going. less rudder is needed as you go inverted but you now need to push forward on the stick to keep straight and level.
still keeping the roll going, you will start to need some rudder again to pick the nose up, but this time the secondary effects of yaw and roll will be acting together in a different way from when the controls were crossed.
you having a good teacher, perhaps he can advise you on this?
and BTW, having a good teacher doesn't make you a good student.
I could have been taught by John Taylor or Andy Cubin, doesn't mean I'll ever be as good as them.
In neither scenario does the glass of water remain intact.
I think you're a bluffer Knox............
pick the nose up with some rudder. rudder use will be opposite to the stick deflection so you need to think about the secondary effects of yaw (from stick) and roll (from rudder).
the glass of water has long gone by this stage.
keep the roll going. less rudder is needed as you go inverted but you now need to push forward on the stick to keep straight and level.
still keeping the roll going, you will start to need some rudder again to pick the nose up, but this time the secondary effects of yaw and roll will be acting together in a different way from when the controls were crossed.
you having a good teacher, perhaps he can advise you on this?
and BTW, having a good teacher doesn't make you a good student.
I could have been taught by John Taylor or Andy Cubin, doesn't mean I'll ever be as good as them.
In neither scenario does the glass of water remain intact.
I think you're a bluffer Knox............
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Could also be one of the competitors except he doesn't have a hotel (as far as I know).
EH - hope you are soon feeling more comfortable and pain-free.
EH - hope you are soon feeling more comfortable and pain-free.
To reinforce those posts saying that it's effin stupid to fly an aircraft outside its limits, regardless of whether or not it's "possible" to do that.........
Some years ago a pilot towed a glider to 4000' with an Auster, on a gusty, turbulent day with small active cumulus clouds and a lot of thermal activity.
He released and started back down to get on the ground for the next as soon as possible.
At about 1500' the port wing broke off.
The investigation found that he had a habit of setting the flaps at what he called "trail". The flaps were operated by a handle on the top LH side of the cabin, hinged at the back end, and could be set in one of 3 (from memory) positions, achieved by a slotted quadrant and a little lever operated by a spring-loaded button at the foreward end of the lever. The "trail" position was in fact loose between 0 flap and the 1st position. The pilot reckoned that this gave him the best rate of descent while maintaining a much higher speed than would be permitted with flap set to position 1.
The Auster was high wing, and had a strut from the bottom of the fuselage to a point about 1/3rd along each wing. About halfway along this strut was a small vertical "jury" strut, going up to the main spar..
What the pilot didn't know was that the point where this strut joined the main spar was the point of maximum lift with flap, which is why the strut was there.
The sequence of events, the AIB concluded, was that as he descended in the rough air, the handle fell into the 1st position and locked there, as it would. Since he was descending at well over the flap limit speed, the jury strut became massively overstressed, and failed, almost certainly in a gust giving a temporary speed increase of 10-20Kts.
Sod's law then took over, as it always will when you are in extremis. The main strut mounting depended on a weld (either welded to the fuselage, or at the bottom of the strut, perhaps an Auster owner will know).
The weld, it was found from the wreckage, had insufficient penetration. The stress caused by the jury strut failure, combined with a momentary airspeed increase caused by a gust above the already excessive speed (with flaps in position 1) , caused the main strut to fail and the wing to fold up and break off.
And that was that. Speed and manoeuvring limitations are there because if they are exceeded the safety margin is lost and the airframe may break up. The cause of the Auster wing breaking off was the failure of the strut due to exceeding flap speed limitations. The poor weld was a possible contributory factor, ie the strut would probably have failed anyway, once the jury strut had failed.
Of course you can do anything with an aircraft that its handling characteristics allow you to do. Equally, you can break it up while doing that, and you'll never even work out why on the way down.
Some years ago a pilot towed a glider to 4000' with an Auster, on a gusty, turbulent day with small active cumulus clouds and a lot of thermal activity.
He released and started back down to get on the ground for the next as soon as possible.
At about 1500' the port wing broke off.
The investigation found that he had a habit of setting the flaps at what he called "trail". The flaps were operated by a handle on the top LH side of the cabin, hinged at the back end, and could be set in one of 3 (from memory) positions, achieved by a slotted quadrant and a little lever operated by a spring-loaded button at the foreward end of the lever. The "trail" position was in fact loose between 0 flap and the 1st position. The pilot reckoned that this gave him the best rate of descent while maintaining a much higher speed than would be permitted with flap set to position 1.
The Auster was high wing, and had a strut from the bottom of the fuselage to a point about 1/3rd along each wing. About halfway along this strut was a small vertical "jury" strut, going up to the main spar..
What the pilot didn't know was that the point where this strut joined the main spar was the point of maximum lift with flap, which is why the strut was there.
The sequence of events, the AIB concluded, was that as he descended in the rough air, the handle fell into the 1st position and locked there, as it would. Since he was descending at well over the flap limit speed, the jury strut became massively overstressed, and failed, almost certainly in a gust giving a temporary speed increase of 10-20Kts.
Sod's law then took over, as it always will when you are in extremis. The main strut mounting depended on a weld (either welded to the fuselage, or at the bottom of the strut, perhaps an Auster owner will know).
The weld, it was found from the wreckage, had insufficient penetration. The stress caused by the jury strut failure, combined with a momentary airspeed increase caused by a gust above the already excessive speed (with flaps in position 1) , caused the main strut to fail and the wing to fold up and break off.
And that was that. Speed and manoeuvring limitations are there because if they are exceeded the safety margin is lost and the airframe may break up. The cause of the Auster wing breaking off was the failure of the strut due to exceeding flap speed limitations. The poor weld was a possible contributory factor, ie the strut would probably have failed anyway, once the jury strut had failed.
Of course you can do anything with an aircraft that its handling characteristics allow you to do. Equally, you can break it up while doing that, and you'll never even work out why on the way down.
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This sounds vaguely reminiscent of the Beech Baron fatal accident this year during an inpromptu aerobatic display. Stupid for the pilot to kill himself while showing off but unforgivable to take others with him.
Yes, sure, loop and roll it once I've got out, I'll just stay on the ground at a safe distance and watch, if that's OK with you, life is dangerous enough.
SB
Yes, sure, loop and roll it once I've got out, I'll just stay on the ground at a safe distance and watch, if that's OK with you, life is dangerous enough.
SB