Risk of Mid-Air Collision At Navigational Beacons
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In the UK, in good visibility, visual navigation is dead easy
I think there is a limit to how many times the pilots who actually go places are going to bother arguing this stuff.
I think there is a limit to how many times the pilots who actually go places are going to bother arguing this stuff.
Fly Conventional Gear
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Good point about the landing lights - BUT has anyone seen someone because of it?
Of course, everyone bumbling blindly around from beacon to beacon is aware of Rule 22, viz:
22.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2), the commander of an aircraft shall not make use of any radio navigation aid without complying with such restrictions and procedures as may be notified in relation to that aid.
(2) The commander of an aircraft shall not be required to comply with this rule if—
(a) he is required to comply with rules 35 and 36; or
(b) he is otherwise authorised by an air traffic control unit.
Aren't they?
22.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2), the commander of an aircraft shall not make use of any radio navigation aid without complying with such restrictions and procedures as may be notified in relation to that aid.
(2) The commander of an aircraft shall not be required to comply with this rule if—
(a) he is required to comply with rules 35 and 36; or
(b) he is otherwise authorised by an air traffic control unit.
Aren't they?
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BillieBob wrote:
And if you're aware of the relevance of Rule 22 in relation to this thread's topic, perhaps you'll enlighten us!
Of course, everyone bumbling blindly around from beacon to beacon is aware of Rule 22 ..... Aren't they?
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Airprox avoidance
I flew Plymouth to Gloucester today to work and the airspace I transited was the busiest I have ever known it (still far quieter than the US though
).
I was keeping a really good lookout but my TCAS also helped a lot - I had numerous traffic advisories and would have come very close to conflicting traffic on 2 occasions had I simply been relying on the mk1 eyeball.
TCAS certainly helps me to maintain separation from other squawking traffic and not only that it allows me to plan evasive maneuvres (you can see whether they are climbing or descending and their approximate track).
Yet again it has paid for itself.
SB
).I was keeping a really good lookout but my TCAS also helped a lot - I had numerous traffic advisories and would have come very close to conflicting traffic on 2 occasions had I simply been relying on the mk1 eyeball.
TCAS certainly helps me to maintain separation from other squawking traffic and not only that it allows me to plan evasive maneuvres (you can see whether they are climbing or descending and their approximate track).
Yet again it has paid for itself.
SB
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LateFinals,
From your post you seemed to be using the beacon too. However, I suspect that your experience has little to do with BNN, it seems that regardless of which part of that narrow choke point I choose (it is easily navigable by eye) I have a close encounter with something. It seems to me that one just has to be very alert in that area.
An interesting discussion on risk perception on the Flyer forum. It is the recent Piper crash thread gone OT.
From your post you seemed to be using the beacon too. However, I suspect that your experience has little to do with BNN, it seems that regardless of which part of that narrow choke point I choose (it is easily navigable by eye) I have a close encounter with something. It seems to me that one just has to be very alert in that area.
An interesting discussion on risk perception on the Flyer forum. It is the recent Piper crash thread gone OT.
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The problem with TCAS is that most GA traffic is below 2000ft, most of it is nontransponding (due to lack the transponders, due to ignorance, or IMHO often deliberately), and while above that level most traffic is transponding there is very little of it.
All UK midairs in past 10 years have been below 1000ft, and you will never find me below 1000ft except when landing
I have been very tempted to spend the ~ Ł15000 on the Avidyne 600 kit but can't justify it relative to the levels I fly at (highest possible OCAS, generally), the heavily slanted vertical distribution of UK GA traffic, the utter scarcity of GA outside the UK, and to the appalling levels of UK avionics shop "expertise" in taking the aircraft apart and putting it back together again correctly. TCAS is a major wiring job, to say the least, and can't be entrusted to the usual butcher.
Of course one can't put a value on one's life so I will never argue with those who want to install it. But, UK OCAS, it will miss the majority of traffic, because Mode C transponders are not mandatory.
Re routing via common navaids, it's better to take a shortcut around it.
All UK midairs in past 10 years have been below 1000ft, and you will never find me below 1000ft except when landing
I have been very tempted to spend the ~ Ł15000 on the Avidyne 600 kit but can't justify it relative to the levels I fly at (highest possible OCAS, generally), the heavily slanted vertical distribution of UK GA traffic, the utter scarcity of GA outside the UK, and to the appalling levels of UK avionics shop "expertise" in taking the aircraft apart and putting it back together again correctly. TCAS is a major wiring job, to say the least, and can't be entrusted to the usual butcher.
Of course one can't put a value on one's life so I will never argue with those who want to install it. But, UK OCAS, it will miss the majority of traffic, because Mode C transponders are not mandatory.
Re routing via common navaids, it's better to take a shortcut around it.
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Forgive me for pushing an issue which is a bit of a pet favorite of mine, but I am really impressed with the portable CAS. In fact I would not fly now with at least this.
They work surprisingly well and whilst I would agree with I0 about the traffic not transponding you will be amazed at how many contacts it does positively identify and gives you time to spot and avoid the traffic.
I have also noticed that non transponding traffic as you would expect is often slow moving so at least you have far more time for the mark 1 to spot the traffic. It is the fast moving traffic that is the real issue.
If you do the calculations you will be amazed at the extra amount of time you have to spot traffic closing at 80 knots compared with 160 knots!
They work surprisingly well and whilst I would agree with I0 about the traffic not transponding you will be amazed at how many contacts it does positively identify and gives you time to spot and avoid the traffic.
I have also noticed that non transponding traffic as you would expect is often slow moving so at least you have far more time for the mark 1 to spot the traffic. It is the fast moving traffic that is the real issue.
If you do the calculations you will be amazed at the extra amount of time you have to spot traffic closing at 80 knots compared with 160 knots!
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I have a new widget that I am trying out at the moment that connects to the 496 and gives traffic data on transponding traffic. Give me a couple of weeks and I will knock up a few thoughts on it.
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I recently bought one of those PCAS thingimebobwotsits too. Despite recently purchasing a 496 I decided to go for the tiny battery powered MRX. Have only used it once, not much around except gliders but it went nuts in the circuit.
Unlike TCAS they are passive - they eavesdrop on other aircrafts' transponder dialogues with interrogators (TCAS a/c or secondary radar). Distance is assessed by measuring attenuation based on TSO'd transponder output standards, I can't say if that assumption holds well in practice.
Unlike TCAS they are passive - they eavesdrop on other aircrafts' transponder dialogues with interrogators (TCAS a/c or secondary radar). Distance is assessed by measuring attenuation based on TSO'd transponder output standards, I can't say if that assumption holds well in practice.
Avoid imitations
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All UK midairs in past 10 years have been below 1000ft, and you will never find me below 1000ft except when landing
Glad to hear the usefulness of TCAS systems is now spreading. Once used properly, flying without it feels like not having trousers.
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I have a new widget that I am trying out at the moment that connects to the 496 and gives traffic data on transponding traffic. Give me a couple of weeks and I will knock up a few thoughts on it.
Another reason to VOR hop is in case the weather is worse than forecast - in otherwords you could continue the flight in IMC if nescessary....That's my reasoning behind it anyway.
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Since the day I got my UK skills test, I always planned and navigated every flight as IFR. (Exception: local area sightseeing flights)
This means using waypoints that are not visible from above.
If there is a view, it's a bonus, and obviously on a given day the flight (UK OCAS) would normally be done 100% VMC, and there is plenty to see.
So, what waypoints to use? Navaids make an obvious backup for the GPS, so one uses VORs and NDBs. If there are none suitable (which is often the case esp. if doing some weird routing around CAS) then I will chuck in an airways intersection (NEDUL, TIGER, etc). These are also dead handy for marking the FIR boundaries on a flight plan if going abroad VFR (SITET etc).
The catch is that if the primary nav device fails, and you fall over to the backup, you can't navigate to waypoints which are not VORs - except by map reading etc, or with KNS80-type RNAV. But I have almost never had this happen... just once over the Alps (IFR) and then I requested a VOR-VOR route.
It's an easy way to fly, and in 800hrs I have never been lost or even unsure of position. Anywhere.
The slight drawback is that I am not the only one doing this - most pilots that go places for real do it also. So there is extra traffic crossing navaids. In Class G, nobody cares where you are, so taking a shortcut is OK.
This means using waypoints that are not visible from above.
If there is a view, it's a bonus, and obviously on a given day the flight (UK OCAS) would normally be done 100% VMC, and there is plenty to see.
So, what waypoints to use? Navaids make an obvious backup for the GPS, so one uses VORs and NDBs. If there are none suitable (which is often the case esp. if doing some weird routing around CAS) then I will chuck in an airways intersection (NEDUL, TIGER, etc). These are also dead handy for marking the FIR boundaries on a flight plan if going abroad VFR (SITET etc).
The catch is that if the primary nav device fails, and you fall over to the backup, you can't navigate to waypoints which are not VORs - except by map reading etc, or with KNS80-type RNAV. But I have almost never had this happen... just once over the Alps (IFR) and then I requested a VOR-VOR route.
It's an easy way to fly, and in 800hrs I have never been lost or even unsure of position. Anywhere.
The slight drawback is that I am not the only one doing this - most pilots that go places for real do it also. So there is extra traffic crossing navaids. In Class G, nobody cares where you are, so taking a shortcut is OK.
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Originally Posted by "LysanderV8
I am not one of the folks who prefer to keep radio silence outside CAS, and it continues to surprise me that here are so many out there. Some say they listen out, but this is so selfish. If you claim to listen out, you are thus expecting to hear something of benefit to you. It is only common safety sense to speak as well, so that others may have an inkling of where your aircraft may be.
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very interesting to see all these responses showing than there are many different opinions. If everyone offsets of course that may increase collision risk !
It will be interesting seeing how the LARS service helps us around the London area, too many times Farnborough have declined to give me a RIS service because they are too busy, which leads me to another point of this thread :
Under what conditions do you request an RIS service from an ATC unit offering this facility ? Always or just in poor vis ? My instructor used to say this should only be used in poor vis / IMC, others feel it should be requested whenever it is available.
Are NATS, who hope the London LARS will reduce airspace infringements really going to be able to offer it to all pilots who request it ?
LateFinals
It will be interesting seeing how the LARS service helps us around the London area, too many times Farnborough have declined to give me a RIS service because they are too busy, which leads me to another point of this thread :
Under what conditions do you request an RIS service from an ATC unit offering this facility ? Always or just in poor vis ? My instructor used to say this should only be used in poor vis / IMC, others feel it should be requested whenever it is available.
Are NATS, who hope the London LARS will reduce airspace infringements really going to be able to offer it to all pilots who request it ?
LateFinals
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Under what conditions do you request an RIS service from an ATC unit offering this facility ? Always or just in poor vis ? My instructor used to say this should only be used in poor vis / IMC, others feel it should be requested whenever it is available.
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If everyone offsets of course that may increase collision risk !
Also I find the risk of collision on good VMC busy days to be the worst - orrible weather and suddenly your very alone.
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RIS or FIS?
FA,
Look up the definitions of RIS and FIS and then decide which service suits your conditions best. Normally a FIS should suffice if the wx is good VMC and you are happy with your routeing. If the wx is not so good and/or you're not comfortable navigating through "tight" airspace close to CAS, ask for a RIS. Under RIS you should get a warning if you are approaching CAS, ATZ's etc.
Asking for RIS in good wx conditions in high traffic density areas when every man and his dog is up flying could lead to non-stop traffic information blocking thr freq!
Look up the definitions of RIS and FIS and then decide which service suits your conditions best. Normally a FIS should suffice if the wx is good VMC and you are happy with your routeing. If the wx is not so good and/or you're not comfortable navigating through "tight" airspace close to CAS, ask for a RIS. Under RIS you should get a warning if you are approaching CAS, ATZ's etc.
Asking for RIS in good wx conditions in high traffic density areas when every man and his dog is up flying could lead to non-stop traffic information blocking thr freq!
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I'd use RIS if available anytime I'm going somewhere...WOuldn't bother with FIS unless someone needs to know you are around i.e. flying into an airfield under a MATZ, (or no radar and over water). Normally then they'll give you a transponder code anyway and be watching you to make sure you don't miss your destination so you may as well ask for a RIS....