Is It A Wonder Accidents Happen!!

[Final 3 Greens]

Would anyone like to have informed and educated debate based on a disagreement with that last statement ?

No, but I would like to add that every aircraft needs an appropriate amount of pre flight checking, the duration of which is the product of the complexity of the aircraft and the ability/experience level of the pilot.

Slow/thorough and quick/thorough are not mutually exclusive.

Safe flying everyone.

[Dark Star]

A tale I once heard:-

Student:- Who's that old boy over there taking forever over his preflight checks ?

Instructor:- Oh him, yeah, that's Charles Lindbergh.

[ScouseFlyer]

Thank goodness-after 6 pages of the thread somebody actually gets it! well done rmac exactly the situation I was flagging up.

SF

[Fuji Abound]

Would anyone like to have informed and educated debate based on a disagreement with that last statement ?

Yeah - OK.

I AM NOT ADVOCATING SKIPPING CHECKS.

Sorry for the shouting, but I wanted to get that out the way first in case some on here cant or wont read. If you suggest otherwise I will keep referring you back to this clear statement!

That said, one of the aircraft I fly I have well over 1,000 hours on.

The maintenance regime is meticulous.

So is my walk around and pre-flight.

In all that time I have only spotted one problem that would cause a problem in the air - the well known issue of slightly leaking fuel caps and water in the fuel. It happens, and I know to look out for it.

So in short if I had never done a walk round it would not have made any difference.

I hasten to add, touch wood, I have never had a problem either in the air which would have been avoided because I missed something in the pre-flight.

I am neither advocating such a horrendous way to carry on, nor do I intend to start.


However, if I had skipped my checks it would not have made any difference in the real world - but yes, I would have been lucky. However there are many things we do in flying that depend on luck and on risk assessment. It so happens that skipping the checks for nearly everyone is the wrong side of the luck or risk assessment line - and rightly so. However, how many people cross the channel without a raft, or an EPIRB. You certainly could chose not to. However if “luck” is against you, it is a really daft thing to do. Personally, I always carry a raft and an EPIRB - period. However, if you examine the statistics the chances of an engine failure are tiny. Many accept the risk but they could have avoided the risk if they chose.

So my point is Bose said (I hope I have not misquoted him) that he checks the oil the night before. Yes, someone might have sneaked into the hangar overnight (presumably have broken and repaired the lock) and secreted some grinding paste in the oil and that might have been picked up if the oil had been checked immediately before the flight and prevented an accident but so might a girder have fallen from the hangar roof as the aircraft was being towed out. The first might not have been any more or less probable than the second - whilst both were possible.

Just a thought!

[BeechNut]

Or have you thought that maybe, for many of us who fly day in day out we can see at a glance if our own aircraft is ready for flight as we walk towards it. That it has not been banged around like the average club hack because only we fly it. That before we leave the aircraft we check it is ready for flight the next day to save the time checking it before we leave. That as experienced and regular flyers we don't need to walk around with a check list for 30 mins waggling bits that worked perfectly well on the flight in. That we are capable of checking the mags, wobbling the prop and looking at the T&P's as we taxi. That even "complex" aircraft are like twist and go mopeds to those who fly them all them time.

And that sometimes those who insist on doing all of the above bug the crap out of us as well but we don't makes posts moaning about it?

Well, we're here to live and learn. My own aircraft is parked outside, so on the first flight of the day I do a full walkaround. I have found things like: stolen fuel, water in the fuel, a flat tire, and after an annual inspection, a bolt missing on the stabilator trim tab actuator. Oh, and once, a pranged wingtip from a careless taildragger, but I got wind of that before the walkaround, the dispatcher dropped me a note from the errant taildragger driver.

So if you park outside, it is prudent to do a full walkaround on the first flight of the day. After that, at various stops along the way, I will just verify fuel and oil levels before going up again. I always do power checks though, although those can be done taxying.

Far less embarrassing to find out on the ground that some ATV driver nipped some fuel from you.

[funfly]

I don't use a checklist to preflight the Dash 8 and I have never seen an airline pilot using a checklist while doing their walk around.

I assumed that pre-flight checks included all before flying not just the ones outside the aircraft!

P.S. I have had fuel nicked overnight even in a hangar - on an RAF base at that!

[mm_flynn]

Aircraft parked outside are very different than those for sole use in your own secure hangar. Mine has had a rudder pranged by a lost 152 driver, had birds decide to live in it and annoyingly had mudbugs bung up the fuel vent on a tip tank (not noticing on the preflight caused a crack - now its a cricked neck blow into the tip tank before using them).

[Captain Smithy]

Is it really such a hardship to quickly check the aircraft before a flight? I'd rather have a look to check that no rivets have popped, control linkages still intact and fuel is uncontaminated. Having oil in the engine helps too.

Apart from that I shall refrain from making any judgements, enough jobbies hath already been spouted ad nauseum on this thread.

[DFC]

I see that a number of people advocate doing the power checks while taxiing e.g.;

Originally Posted by BeechNut

I always do power checks though, although those can be done taxying.

Can those that advocate such a method please describe just how they complete the power checks while taxiing?

i.e. power settings, checks of systems, how to remain at a safe taxi speed while 2000rpm is set without riding the brakes, lookout etc.

-----------

Fuji,

He also only checks the fuel for water the night before following fueling. Is that a good idea in your book?

------------

This thred is a human factors person's dream! The pilot personality profiles are all there in black and white.

Acheivement - I've got a multi-ir and I'm going to use it

Exhibition - I fly somuch I can't believe it myself

Dominance - I am more experienced than you guys who have to do checks for 30 minutes so won't be persuaded by any of your arguments about safety.

Adventure - Any one got the charts for Morocco

Deference - I don't care who says what. I will not change my routine even if the CAA say it is poor airmanship.

but most importantly -

Change - We are not just being forgetful if we miss a checklist item, It is in this personality type to resist the repetition of doing the same checklist every time.

Sample personality question appropriate to the pilot type under discusion;

Filling out a complete Flight Log, Fuel Log and Weight and balance sheet is

a) Good as a beginner but not necessary later;

b) Good practice but not necessary on every flight

c) Essential for safe flight every time

Regards,

DFC

[S-Works]

Ha!!!!
DFC you are such an asshole.

edited to add:

My power checks are done at 1700 RPM which is only a fraction more than it takes to get the beast actually moving.

If you can show me how water gets in full tanks over night in a locked hangar I will be truly amazed.

I can't be bothered to answer the rest of your points because you are such an asshole and not worth the effort.

I am however totally flattered that you are attracted enough to me to make a pastime of making your self look stupid trying to attack me.

I wonder how many hours you flew this week compared to me..........

[High Wing Drifter]

Answer B too!! This thread is now somewhat reminiscent of vintage Monty Python sketch

[S-Works]

I am sure the answer is C and DFC will give us at least 15 snippets from paragraphs of CAA propaganda (or just make it up) to prove his point.......


And I bet he just "lurves" the reason for high viz jackets......

[Diddley Dee]

Bose

I read a lot of what you say here & elsewhere, often it is relevent & of value to low hours people such as myself. Parts of this thread being a case in point. What really infuriates me though is the way you so very often go off on one and abuse people with regularity. I too have had disagreements with DFC in the past but never felt the need or desire to start calling people assholes.... it sounds so childish!

Rant over

DD aka Moli

[strake]

Moderator, that's twice....

Ha!!!!
DFC you are such an asshole.

[S-Works]

ooooh, the sensibilities offended.

Perfectly acceptable for him to construct entire posts on every thread on these forums to have a go at me but not for me to return the compliment.

Suit yourselves. Rob, how long this time?

[drauk]

I'm with Bose. I never do checks.

[davidatter708]

This is just funny now. . Can i add another point the highway code says you need to check the oil every morning and the tyre tread and pressure who does that or does everyone have a check list for their car i dont
Dave

[strake]

Bose. I promise it's not personal, I am supremely indifferent as to how you do your checks....your choice.. 'Coz actually, despite your seriously baaaad attitude, you probably do know what you are doing.
It's just that I've found out that I was banned on another area of the forum for having bad thoughts....and I wanted to see if you can get banned for bad words.....

[maxdrypower]

I think high wing drifter has it right I feel like dressing up like John Cleese and asking
"Is this the right room for an argument "

But I know half a dozen will say" I told you once "
One or two will say "didnt you check before coming in ?"
Several will quote relevant legislation regarding entering arguments
Another will say "Well it was when I left it last night "
Some will say "Yes it is but buggered if I know where that water and Birds nest came from "

[Fuji Abound]

Has Bose really been banned?

If he has, I am not happy he has.