Is It A Wonder Accidents Happen!!

[Oek1r]

Is it me or is all this getting a little silly. We all know by now that Bose advocates skinning cats, I like make a point and rmac wants to put on his gloves and pull his pistol. But shall we agree to disagree? JUST BE SAFE....however you do it! poor old Scouse flyer hasn't even had a look in. Happy flying.

[rmac]

Bose

Read my post again. I said I was waiting for you to suggest gloves or pistols as your language "incur my wrath" was headed that way. I then recommend that you chill out and meditate a bit

I'm with Oek, keep the pointy bit facing the right way

[funfly]

c'mon now girls....
Familiarity breeds etc....
Better do do one unnecessary check than to miss a necessary one.
That's what I fink anyway

[AerocatS2A]

Must say, I've never heard of someone using a check list for a pre-flight check. Oh well.

[funfly]

"Must say, I've never heard of someone using a check list for a pre-flight check. Oh well".

Every airline pilot?

[DFC]

Originally Posted by BoseX

That we are capable of checking the mags, wobbling the prop and looking at the T&P's as we taxi.

As much as one can argue that the initial post was perhaps unclear because saying that an experienced aviator does not need to 30 minutes with a checklist to pre-flight the aircraft clearly indicates that the period required is anything from 29 minutes to 0 minutes.

However,

Originally Posted by BoseX

That before we leave the aircraft we check it is ready for flight the next day to save the time checking it before we leave.

Tends to point the average person towards 0 minutes.

However, recently Bose said that he is happy not to check the fuel for water pre-flight because he checks it the previous day after re-fueling post flight and the aircraft is locked in a hangar.

I wonder why BoseX while being so mindfull of saving time wastes some 45minutes plus post flight waiting for the fuel to settle sufficiently for an accurate water sample to be taken when simply leaving the water check to the pre-flight would save a lot of time and aviod having to do the same check twice?

As for doing checks while taxiing, well, all professional operators will have received written information on the topic from the CAA. I can't get the exact document online at the moment but it is attached to the following information for ATCOs as appendix B;

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ATS053.pdf

Simply put, just like when in the car, one sould not be distracted from the primary task of safely manoeuvering the aircraft and avioding collisions and infringements. Professional multi-crew aircraft SOPs require one pilot to be looking out at all times and prevent the posibility of both pilots looking inside by clear notification of when a pilot is changing from looking outside to looking inside. For single pilot crews, the only checks done are memory items such as the brake check and checking the instrument responses in turns.

I am shocked at the complaint about low time pilots or students blocking taxiways while taking an age to do their checks. I hope that the reason for complaint is the blocking of the taxiway and thus should be directed at the aerodrome authority for not providing a run-up area if required.

Finally, I would love to see the reaction from BoseX if the next maintenance engineer quickly walks round the aircraft and hands over a bill for £2000 with a statement like....I know the aircraft, I have seen hundreds of such aircraft and would notice a fault from 50 metres.

I can hear the "but we expect the engineer to be more carefull" and "what are we paying for then?"....but don't the unknowing passengers in your and other aircraft have the same argument?

Finally, I would like to point out that exercising the prop simply shows that the prop can move from fine to coarse and back. It does not check the operation of the govenor which should be checked pre-flight. (Feathering checks being something different and type dependent.)

Regards,

DFC

[Fuji Abound]

Finally, I would like to point out that exercising the prop simply shows that the prop can move from fine to coarse and back.

Really?

If it is a hydraulic system I am equally interested in what happens to the oil pressure, whether the lever behaves as it should and whether the prop returns to the correct speed set.

This is the problem.

Students should not do things without understanding why they are doing them, and what they really should be looking out for.

I could give a similiar list for electrically activated governors.

[DFC]

Fuji,

There is a difference between variable pitch prop and constant speed unit - it is possible to have a variable pitch prop but no constant speed unit. In that case, you set the pitch for the phase of flight - climb, cruise etc. With the simple electric or hydraulic or even manual, variable pitch prop, once set it behaves like a fixed pitch prop at that setting i.e. you speed up or advance the throttle and the RPM increases.

Moving the prop lever back and forward pre-flight checks the ability to vary the pitch and no more.

With a constant speed govenor fitted and working, having selected an RPM, the govenor will automatically vary the pitch of the propeller (within limits) inresponse to throttle movement and airspeed changes to maintain that RPM.

In order to verify that the govenor is working it is necessary to set the RPM in the governed range and vary the throttle setting slightly while confirming that the govenor responds and maintains a constant RPM.

That is why most people describe aircraft such as the C182 as having a constant speed prop as opposed to a variable pitch prop.

Regards,

DFC

[Contacttower]

It does not check the operation of the govenor which should be checked pre-flight. (Feathering checks being something different and type dependent.)

I've never been told to check the operation of the governor pre-flight, surely the engine needs to be running for the governor to be checked? Certainly on the types I know.

[DFC]

Forgot to say on the last post that taking the Senneca as an example, the exercising part of the check calls for the prop lever to be brought back until a 200 to 300 drop is experienced. Not the total lashing of the prop one normally hears during the average pre-take-off check. This is only done 3 times on the first flight of the day. The check then requires that the operation of the govenor is checked.

Suffice to say that such a check can not be completed at the required 2000rpm while taxiing and at the same time devoting the required time to looking out the window.

Regards,

DFC

[Knight Paladin]

Slopey - Were the instructor in question a military instructor, aforementioned student would have been berated plenty worse if he DIDN'T know the checks by rote, to the extent that the instructor would probably refuse to fly until the student did know them. Knowing checks in that way is generally a prerequisite to flying a single pilot miltary aeroplane for the first time. For cases where the pilot in question is flying sufficiently regularly for these checks to become second nature, I believe this technique is equally applicable to GA aeroplanes as it is to military fast-jets. One could almost say there are plenty of different ways to skin a cat....

[Fuji Abound]

If you were talking about a vp as opposed to a csu you are forgiven.

[S-Works]

I have lost the will to live...................

Still I have spent the day flying and did not fall out of the sky due to my apparent sloppy attitude.

So you will be pleased to not, no dead nuns or play school kids.

[JW411]

I have lost the will to live........

So it would appear dear boy, so it would appear.

[Contacttower]

This is quite an interesting scene I once saw at Gainesville in Florida;

Florida in July, thunderstorms building all day, a really huge one is heading towards the airport, the winds picking up, the sky's going dark and I am rapidly saying goodbye to the prospect of flying that afternoon. Suddenly a guy rushes out of the FBO and runs across the apron at top speed towards his aircraft (Mooney Bravo). He jumps in, starts in seconds and is off in less than a minute. He then races towards the runway, ignoring the taxiways and just ploughing across the grass, slams it open with a tailwind departure and zooms away at low level with the storm literally seconds away. Lucky escape maybe...but a good example of a situation where potential problems with the plane get missed.

[FREDAcheck]

It means I am really getting pissed off with the endless attacks against me for not doing checks when I have quite clearly stated that I do them

Bose, read your first post and you might see why people misunderstand you:

Or have you thought that maybe, for many of us who fly day in day out we can see at a glance if our own aircraft is ready for flight as we walk towards it. That it has not been banged around like the average club hack because only we fly it. That before we leave the aircraft we check it is ready for flight the next day to save the time checking it before we leave. That as experienced and regular flyers we don't need to walk around with a check list for 30 mins waggling bits that worked perfectly well on the flight in. That we are capable of checking the mags, wobbling the prop and looking at the T&P's as we taxi. That even "complex" aircraft are like twist and go mopeds to those who fly them all them time.

I should think anyone reading that would take the view that you DON'T do many pre-flight checks (only post-flight), and that is the issue where many would disagree with you, despite your great experience, of which you are very ready to remind us.

And when it comes to attacks, you started it! This post of yours is sneering, condescending and patronising to those that don't have your oh-so-great skills. Be nicer to others that don't have your God-like abilities, and we'll do our inferior best to be nice to you.

[Schmacko]

Now Rmac you behave yourself now.......how u been ? 303 is going like a can of baked beans on steroids........where can I get new screens other than Cessna, any ideas ?

Schmacko......the counsellor

[AerocatS2A]

Every airline pilot?

Well obviously not every one.

I don't use a checklist to preflight the Dash 8 and I have never seen an airline pilot using a checklist while doing their walk around.

Normally on a feathering prop you are checking that the prop feathers during the checks. On a non-feathering prop it's simply a check to see that the prop changes pitch and get some fresh oil through the system.

The POH for the Shrike I fly calls only for a feathering check at 1500 RPM. Once on warm days and up to three times as required when cold outside. Then there's a mag check at 2000 and generator, hydraulics, and suction checks at 2200. It doesn't take long, but I certainly don't do it on the run.

[englishal]

Moving the prop lever back and forward pre-flight checks the ability to vary the pitch and no more

Oh oh.... DFC has got his book out again......and that the prop doesn't fly off, and that oil doesn't piss out everywhere to name but a few....

This is only done 3 times on the first flight of the day.

Not by me, it is done on every flight.

I agree the RAF pilots are some of the best in the world. I guess the lad who flew his Harrier into the ground (Ref AAIB reports) on a low approach to Oxford because he lost situational awareness is probably not one of them though....

[rmac]

It amuses me that somehow this whole thread has diverted to checklist discussion.

It started as a comment that a certain person probably couldn't have done any checks at all, judging by the expeditious nature of the witnessed departure, whether by list or by memory. The subject of lists came in later as a defensive tactic by those quick to jump on ScouseFlyer for starting the thread.

The bottom line is that any aircraft cannot be treated as a twist and go moped, even the simplest one, and anyone who does so is probably simpler than a very simple aircraft (as Blackadder might say )

Would anyone like to have informed and educated debate based on a disagreement with that last statement ?


Schmacko, Hows life in the deep south mate ? I don't know about the screens, but will get our parts guy to find out, we look after three 303's these days including mine.