Is It A Wonder Accidents Happen!!

[gasax]

I'm with bose-x and rotoboater.

I'm the only one who flies it. Its hangared and when I tour it's covered.

If I cannot spot something from a quick walk around and power check it is highly unlikely anything other than pulling it to bits will help.

As for these prolonged checks - in the majority of cases it's necessary because they only fly 12 hours a year or less.

And as for their effectiveness - lookup the results for finding rigged defects exhibit that the CAA do at big fly-ins. The average PPL would struggle to find a propeller put on backwards!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The average PPL would struggle to find a propeller put on backwards!

Well, that's hardly likely, is it. Personally I try to avoid that sort of thing by refusing to fly a club aircraft solo when it's just come out of a non-trivial service - an instructor can test fly it for me, thanks, I choose another one.

There was however a recent thread (whether here or the other place I don't recall) on real faults found by real pilots on real aircraft on pre-flight checks.

[digital.poet]

Ok, firstly I am a low hours student, so not at all qualified to comment.... here is my comment...

As I have been flying more often this month, and therefore doing lots of preflight inspections, there have been a couple of times where I had considered that there are probably a few folks who get a little complacent with the checks. This is human nature. Everyone go check the manual for your car, pay attention to the checks recommended in there.... how many people do them as often as recommended in the manual? Ok, so I appreciate that flying tends to be a little more precision than driving, and a more 'safety conscious' activity, but can their come a point where a certain type of character, who flies often and who has never found a problem during a pre-flight check just starts to slack off? My answer, almost certainly.

I do appreciate that people are defending a guy who is not here to defend himself, and that is an honourable thing to do, but I do tend to wonder whether somebody who hurtles out of an airfield and completely disregards published procedures should receive the benefit of any doubt.

Having said all that.... you guys know far more than I do.... and I have read the thread with great interest.

[Mikehotel152]

I always do my checks. It takes me maybe 5 minutes longer than chaps who glance at their aircraft and assume all's well because they were the last person who flew it.

I'd rather give up those 5 minutes even if it adds up to a lifetime, than not have that lifetime.

[JW411]

I went solo on 1st July 1957. I gave up flying "serious" aeroplanes last year at the age of 65. I still fly "fun" aeroplanes. I have had a very successful and safe flying career lasting half a century with very little drama along the way.

Why do you think that is? Well just one of my secrets is in always doing a proper preflight inspection. Do not allow yourself to get complacent. Do not trust to luck - ever! Do not trust anyone else - especially yourself!

Familiarity breeds contempt.

[IO540]

Haven't read the whole thread but...

Yes one should do the preflight checks but often these are left out if the plane has already flown that day, especially if the checks were done after the last landing.

On the training scene (IME) checks are often skipped during the day's flights, except for the oil dipstick.

One should not judge without knowing the whole picture, previous flights, etc.

Personally, I always do all checks, including using a light to check bits not so visible.

If one is really concerned about vandalism/sabotage then one needs to do more than the usual external checks. I know of one case of proven sabotage (not UK, but happened to a personal friend) which resulted in a crash, and trust me 99% of private pilots would not have spotted that one. My preflight checks do include checking what was done to that plane and obviously I am not going to say what it was.

[davidatter708]

Its simple the less you fly the more you forget the more you fly the slicker things will be. I know someone who didnt fly for a while in a hombuilt and forgot about the ignition switch wondered y it wouldnt start even with the key on and masters on. I look up to bose and ppl who will fly every day if they can do eevrything quickly and safetly at there speed let them however ill stick with a decent check at my speed thanks
David

[Icarus Wings]

Ha Ha Ha! Bose-x calling someone else arrogant!

[englishal]

I'm with Bose and the others.

When I fly my own plane, which is securely hangared and only 4 of us have use of, I can preflight in 5 minutes. The MAIN things to check in a PF check are: you have enough oil, you have enough fuel, the fuel is ok, the airframe is not bent, no control surfaces are not going to fall off, there is nothing attached to the plane, all covers and locks are off and there is nothing out of the ordinary (for example a puddle of oil under the engine). Anything else serious enough to kill you probably won't show up during a PF anyway.

You can waggle your stabilator until the cows come home but it won't show the cracked engine mount or bug in the fuel line waiting to be ingested by the fuel injector.

[FREDAcheck]

Ha Ha Ha! Bose-x calling someone else arrogant!

Unfair criticism of Bose I think, as you can see from his posts on this thread:

many of us who fly day in day out we can see at a glance if our own aircraft is ready for flight as we walk towards it

even "complex" aircraft are like twist and go mopeds to those who fly them all them time

A keen eye for detail allows me to see at a glance...

(I love that one!)

I am totally in tune with my aircraft

He's not arrogant, just right.
And as for personal attacks:

You and I are going to have a fall out if you don't desist from personal attacks

(after DFC had called him "an accident waiting to happen")

You are an arrogant desk jockey who knows nothing about real aviation

you would make your self look less of an asshole

DFC, I'd leave Bose alone if I were you, you're not in his class, even at personal attacks.

[Schmacko]

Dear oh dear you fellas up there really do get upset sometimes, but that's why I like ya......
**What happened to letting the engines warm up into the green, do your checks whilst it is warming up ????????
**A properly conducted power check would have detected faulty injectors by a drop in RPM........with a constant load and all that. Before you object get a P&W or Wright or Lycoming manual and see what a proper power check is.

Goodoh for dogs

[S-Works]

Morning smacko, or is it evening down there?

Warm up times vary from aircraft to aircraft, my Cessna is a big 6 tightly cowled and warms up very quickly, in fact I like to get moving quickly too stop it rising to rapidly, the chippy is a lumpy old tractor engine and takes ages and I will sit for up to 10 mins warming it up.

A properly conducted power check at run up RPM in the case you are talking about would have been done by the engineers, I know my engineers run the aircraft up every time they work on it. So if they missed it, it is unlikely the pilot in question would have picked it up. I had a problem with an injector in the past and ended up moving to GAMI to resolve it. Problem never occurred on the ground only in the cruise.

I guess the point is that every engine and aircraft is different and a pilot who knows there own aircraft (and the POH) is able to make decisions based on that intimate knowledge. They should be able to make those decisions without fear of criticism or attack from those who do not have the same level familiarity.

I would agree that the inexperienced, those who are sharing or renting aircraft be totally meticulous in pre-flight for every flight, you never know what the guy before you did. In my case and obviously many of the others on here, we know what the guy before did as we were the guy before!!

Before I put mine to bed I check the oils and fuels and make sure nothing fell off in the last flight. Next day it is very easy to see on a white spat if any oil has leaked out and I know the exact spot that my cowling funnels the oil onto the spat when it leaks. When I start it I know exactly what the engine should sound like, I have sat behind this particular one for over a thousand hours. I have a worn starter clutch and can tell you at what point the clutch will catch and the prop will turn because I know what it sounds like. These are all things gained from regular flying.

When I am teaching someone new on type I make sure they follow the checklist and stick to it. Over time they will become used to it, the student that takes 20 minutes for a walk around now, over time will only take 5 minutes. They are not skipping anything just become better and more efficient at doing it.

It takes 500 repetitions of a skill to make it a motor response. This is any skill.

As for acts of vandalism against aircraft, I do indeed lead a very sheltered life!!!!

But for what I hope is the last time and for total clarity.

I AM NOT saying skip the checks I am saying that as you become more experienced the checks are done faster and at different times.

I AM NOT protecting the pilot in this example, I am just offering alternative thinking.

I can see why there were so many people burnt at the stake in the dark ages.........

[Canada Goose]

Well, I can see both sides to this thread, however I think the wise words are from JW411 ! Anecdontally, many years ago I nearly failed my multi rating in Canada. Why ? Well, I did a meticulous walk around before the flight test whilst the a/c was on the apron etc and then had a meeting with the examiner and did the paper work etc, after which we retuned to the a/c.

In the meantime someone who worked at the club had moved the a/c 20 yards or so. After firing up the engines, the rear luggage door at the back popped open (on his side IIRC and I had made sure it was firmly closed during my walk around but the person who moved it had obviously been inside. IIRC there was a tow bar kept there). Rather embarrassing to say the least. Examiner gives me 'that look', and then lectures me about doing a walk around on returning to an aircraft etc 'what would happen if that occurred in flight and stuff fell out etc etc'. Not the best way to start a flight test !!

[Contacttower]

even "complex" aircraft are like twist and go mopeds to those who fly them all them time

I'm sorry but despite having flown a number of complex types, Arrow, Bulldog, Tutor, C-180 amphib I will never regard them as twist and go mopeds...they're simply much more complex and deserve to be treated as such. I recently found a broken beacon hanging off the tail of an aircraft I was about to fly, the beacon was in danger of fouling the rudder and yes the plane had just been flown.

[Knight Paladin]

Bulldog, Tutor - Complex?!? .................. Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!

That aside, any aeroplane you fly every day will become second nature to you - the "twist and go moped" of bose's analogy. That aircraft could be a Cessna 152, Warrior, Pitts, Airbus A340, Tornado, whatever. Treat it with the utmost respect - yes. Carry out checks meticulously - yes. Be so comfortable with such routine procedures that they are done from memory and can easily be done while taxiing - yes. Have every second you can save safely while wasting time and fuel on the ground shaved off - yes. I'm not saying one should skimp on checks at all, just that when you do something very regularly you rapidly learn the most efficient way to do so. Just try asking around here who flies for a living, not just for pleasure.

[Contacttower]

Bulldog, Tutor - Complex?!? .................. Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!

OK, OK I realised soon after I typed my post that actually no the wheels don't come up on either ...the other two I mentioned they certainly do. My general point still stands though.

[rmac]

I am really quite shocked by some of you out there who are in such a hurry to get in to the next life that you can't spare five extra minutes in this one.

Aircraft are subjected to multiple opposing stress forces, they shake and bump, rattle and roll their way around. Very rarely does a perfectly working part suddenly break, there are always lots of subtle clues, if you take a little extra time to look for them. Even after a thirty minute mid flight break. You may do this and never in your lifetime ever find a problem. But the day you do find a small but critical crack, tear, rip, cut, ripple in an important part of you aircraft will make it all seem worthwhile.

As a small example, recently I was doing a short walk around of my aircraft on the second flight of the day, I had flown a few hours earlier. The exhaust pipe on my right engine looked perfectly normal, but when I gave it a good tug, it came away completely in my hand. It had almost corroded fully from the inside, at the weld, just below the bracket holding it, and had sheared almost all the way on the previous flight, held on by two bolts only. For sure it would have come away on the next flight, blowing very hot exhaust gases all over the inside of my engine compartment. It would have been expensive, inconvenient and a potential source for engine fire.

In my earlier flying days, I flew a lot of aeros. I was a pre-flight check "nazi" in those days, giving all the important parts a real going over to ensure they would remain attached to the aircraft under aerobatic stresses. The need to do so has never left me.

Even after all is complete, before I strap in, I have an eyes only walk around the aircraft for a last look in case I have missed anything stupidly obvious.

You will never eliminate all the possibilities, but by taking care of the ones you can, you will have more capacity to deal with the ones you can't.

"Better to be down here wishing you were up there, than up there wishing you were down here."

[SNS3Guppy]

and you can dispense with the checklist (except for backing up emergency drills), doing them from memory instead.

Again, famous last words.

I once sat behind another airplane as three of us prepared for departure. He thought he shouldn't do a runup each time, didn't see the need for a checklist. He had fifteen thousand hours in type, and had been flying that speific serial number for years. Just him, nobody else. He elected to do the runup. I watched a very large fireball come out his exhuast and heard the explosion, then he shut down. Had he not done the runup, it would have happened on the takeoff roll instead...heavily loaded, short field, obstacles all arouned.

I've done preflights and found all sorts of things. I topped in a remote mountain location one night for fuel and to pick up a patient. While the crew was gone to get the patient, I took the fuel, then performed another preflight, as is my custom. I found something that wasn't there when the trip started; smoking rivets along the spar cap. A lot of them. I cancelled the trip, had another airplane come get the patient, and scheduled an inspection the following morning. All the rivets on the upper side of the spar on that wing were replaced as a result of what was found.

Another flight...we were in between sorties, quick turns, and I was loading the airplane. We located small indications in the bottom of the wing...dirt, really. We were operating in very dirty conditions, and I wouldn't have thought much of it. But I was flying with someone who knew that airplane well, and we was giving it a good inspection between every turn. We shut down, off loded, stripped the paint off the wing, and did a dye penetrant check. We found two small cracks. We drained the fuel, and did NDT testing from inside the wing. The wing was cracked completely through. Had we taken that flight, we'd have lost the wing.

Another aircraft...we parked the airplane at the end of the day, doing searches. Hangared it. It was assigned to us. We had no writeups. We locked the hangar, and expected to go out in that same airplane at firsts light. We arrived, loaded our gear, and in the twilight, towed the airplane from the hangar. Everything was in order, except...one elevator was missing. Overnight, someone had entered the hangar, inadvertantly damaged the aircraft, and removed the elevator.

Another occasion, I was sent to pick up an airplane I'd flown many hours in, instructed many hours in...I soloed in it. The mechanic at the shop releasing the airplane told me all was in order; he'd just flown it himself the night before. He assured me it was in fine shape. I preflighted it, finding all the inspection panels on the underside of the airplane missing, the fuel tanks bone dry, and the ailerons rigged backward, among other things.

Another aircraft, we were sent out on an emergency scramble, get in the air fast. We were flying the airplane every day. Nobody else flew that airplane. We knew the airplane. On the takeoff roll, the propeller rolled back to nearly 1200 RPM. We barely made it off the ground on three other engines, we were unable to feather the #1, and all our efforts to do something with it drove it farther back. A runup would have caught it...but there wasn't time. Time, like when one is too busy sawing to take time to sharpen the saw. We never got more than 200' in the traffic pattern as we returned to land, because we couldn't do anything with that prop...even in a four engine airplane with the entire load jettisoned...it could have gone much worse.

Those are a few of many personal experiences I could throw at you to tell you how wrong you are, several of you, when you suggest it's okay to skip runups, inspections, shortcut procedures, fail to use checklists...you're wrong. Your failure to realize this may mean you're dead wrong.

Don't get dead. Use your checklists. Do your procedures. Every time.

I've been this game a long time, and I'll tell you that even in an airplane I know intimately, I do the checklist, I do it out loud, even if single pilot and I do it every time. Experience has taught me that I can't afford not to. Perhaps you just know so much you're beyond all that.

But I seriously doubt it.

Hopefully you don't have to learn the hard way.

[S-Works]

All of you writing on here so quick to bang on about how you should not skip checks blah, blah, blah blah are missing the cruicial point and perhaps should go back to primary school and learn to read.

NOT ONCE has anyone advocated skipping checks, I refer to my post a few lines above), what we are saying as the more you fly an aircraft the better you become at doing the checks and what once upon a time took 20 minutes now takes 5 and so on.

Things do break and in my experience they are not the sort of things that are picked up on a check A which is all the walk around is. All of the stuff that gupy has quoted are all very valid and totally unlikely to be picked up by the average low hour PPL during a walk around but highly likely to be picked up by a pro/regular flyer through knowing the aircraft inside and out, in fact one of your examples even states this. All your argument does is highlight what has been said earlier, if you are in tune with your aircraft you spot these things.

My point is and it seems I will have to keep re-stating it until the cows come home or I am burnt at the stake as heretic is: That if I fly my aircraft home, I fuel it, oil it, inspect it and lock it in my hangar, when I come to it the next morning I look for oil that may have leaked as it cooled down then pull it out and go. I do not need to do another check. If I land at an airfield, walk inside pick up a friend and walk out the only thing I will check is the oil. I will do the power checks on the go if I need to keep up the flow of traffic. How long does it take to check the mags, cycle the prop and check low RPM?

So again, we do not know the story of the pilot in question right at the very start of this saga and I have merely offered an alternative rather than just burning him at the stake. I see on another thread how everyone was so quick to burn a guy at the stake until he came on and explained what happened and then a lot of humble pie was eaten by the more vociferous.

As far complex aircraft being difficult, pleeeeeease, thats just because you don't have enough time on them......

[rmac]

Hey SN3, for your "up there wishing I was down here" example, you weren't very far up there at all. No margins at 200ft. Ouch
Well written old chap, I would hazard to guess that you are a long serving bush pilot. I only hope that some of the "city cowboys" take notice.

I don't care that much if they want to kill themselves, but they always end up taking someone else with them.