Is It A Wonder Accidents Happen!!
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At no time did I suggest that checks were not done, but thanks for the assassination of my character.
The point I was trying to make is that those of us who have thousands of hours doing this can do a preflight a damn site quicker than the 100hr PPL with his check list.
Strangely I have managed to stay air borne without problems and experience has taught me the things that fail are the things that you can't check on a walk around.
I pre-flight my aircraft before I leave it, oil fuel function checks. A keen eye for detail allows me to see at a glance if anything has changed before the next flight.
The controls rigged backwards between flights conducted by me? Really? A glance at the nose leg with no sign of leaking oil or hydraulic fluid, are the wings ailerons, flaps etc where I left them, are the tyres inflated? All of this can be taken in at a glance to the experienced eye.
I operate a Chipmunk and that takes me longer to prime than do the walk around........
Like I said just because someone does something different to you it is not wrong and once again on here we are judging on one side of the story.....
The point I was trying to make is that those of us who have thousands of hours doing this can do a preflight a damn site quicker than the 100hr PPL with his check list.
Strangely I have managed to stay air borne without problems and experience has taught me the things that fail are the things that you can't check on a walk around.
I pre-flight my aircraft before I leave it, oil fuel function checks. A keen eye for detail allows me to see at a glance if anything has changed before the next flight.
The controls rigged backwards between flights conducted by me? Really? A glance at the nose leg with no sign of leaking oil or hydraulic fluid, are the wings ailerons, flaps etc where I left them, are the tyres inflated? All of this can be taken in at a glance to the experienced eye.
I operate a Chipmunk and that takes me longer to prime than do the walk around........
Like I said just because someone does something different to you it is not wrong and once again on here we are judging on one side of the story.....
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This thread reflects the typical envy-based nonsense that keeps some people in this country going day to day.
We are all our own keepers.
Let's not judge so quickly.
SB (does essentail preflight efficiently and then goes flying)
We are all our own keepers.
Let's not judge so quickly.
SB (does essentail preflight efficiently and then goes flying)
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There's an AAIB report this month on a Baron that crashed fataly after being picked up post-maintenance. The injectors in the failing engine were found to be corroded and partially blocked. My thinking is that a power check should have spotted this - the MAPs being significantly different for the same throttle position. Is my thinking valid?
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There's an AAIB report this month on a Baron that crashed fataly after being picked up post-maintenance. The injectors in the failing engine were found to be corroded and partially blocked. My thinking is that a power check should have spotted this - the MAPs being significantly different for the same throttle position. Is my thinking valid?
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One would assume the engineers did a run up as part of the release to service. Therefore I would be surprised if the problem would have shown itself on the ground.
I had an alternator failure climbing out of Guernsey IFR a couple of weeks ago, a bang and the LV light came on, I returned for an ILS and on examining the problem found the coil head had lost its bolts and come apart. Not a fault you would see on a walk around or during the run up checks.
I am not advocating skipping the checks in any shape or form, but I am saying that the more you do this the quicker it becomes to do them and to the inexperienced eyes it looks like nothing has been done. I am totally in tune with my aircraft, I fly it daily and I know every squeak and rattle on it and despite it being complex I find it like a twist and go. Power checks are done on the taxi. When you are departing IFR from a major airport you make sure the checks are done quickly and cleanly without holding anyone up behind you. Just the same as the airline crews do.
We have only heard one side of this story yet many are quick to judge.......
I had an alternator failure climbing out of Guernsey IFR a couple of weeks ago, a bang and the LV light came on, I returned for an ILS and on examining the problem found the coil head had lost its bolts and come apart. Not a fault you would see on a walk around or during the run up checks.
I am not advocating skipping the checks in any shape or form, but I am saying that the more you do this the quicker it becomes to do them and to the inexperienced eyes it looks like nothing has been done. I am totally in tune with my aircraft, I fly it daily and I know every squeak and rattle on it and despite it being complex I find it like a twist and go. Power checks are done on the taxi. When you are departing IFR from a major airport you make sure the checks are done quickly and cleanly without holding anyone up behind you. Just the same as the airline crews do.
We have only heard one side of this story yet many are quick to judge.......
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Bose - Your years in the bluntysphere have sadly made you much more able to eloquently put the case across than me! I too can get quite annoyed with the PPL who sits blocking the hold while laboriously doing checks from the cards.
This is the scariest thread I think I've seen on pprune.It's all very well saying that you know your aircraft, that you're the only person who flies it, that it's just come out of an Annual so it should be working perfectly, that you're so slick that you can do all your checks at a glance and your power checks as you taxy...
But you're increasing the risks that one day you'll miss something because overnight a student pilot knocked your wingtip or some idiot leapt over the perimetre fence and did some mindless damage or that a pipe that was fastened when you took off yesterday has loosened itself or that time constraints slightly reduced your engine's warm-up time and it then failed on take-off because of X, and X was because of Y and Y in turn was because you needed a pee when you left the aircraft the last time you flew it.
These things do happen. Often. Aircraft do fall out of the sky with experienced pilots who know their aircraft. Sometimes it's a something that you can't check, maybe terribly bad luck, but more often than not it's something that could have been prevented.
It's very scarey that supposedly competent pilots can be so blase about safety issues. I hope I never share the same airspace with them.
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Where does one start with BoseX's statement?
1. The pre-flight inspection is a legal requirement. Professional pilots always complete a pre-flight inspection - not because they want to wiggle the ailerons on the B747
but because it is their responsibility legally to check...even if the engineer has also done so and signed the A check.
The post flight check should be taught more at basic flight training because it is better to notice the oil leak post flight and have it repaired overnight in preparation for the next day than to discover it 30 minutes prior to ETD.
Of course many problems such as some oil loss may not be seen on the post flight but will be picked up the next day.
2. When single pilot, all checks should be completed when the aircraft is stopped. There have been several runway infringements caused by pilots doing checks on the move.
When I hear: "I'm so experienced I don't have to do this and that like you do" it translates into "I'm an accident waiting to happen"
An IRI?......Please remember that students will strive to emulate their instructor's habbits and also revise Primacy when dealsing with teaching people.
Regards,
DFC
1. The pre-flight inspection is a legal requirement. Professional pilots always complete a pre-flight inspection - not because they want to wiggle the ailerons on the B747
but because it is their responsibility legally to check...even if the engineer has also done so and signed the A check.The post flight check should be taught more at basic flight training because it is better to notice the oil leak post flight and have it repaired overnight in preparation for the next day than to discover it 30 minutes prior to ETD.
Of course many problems such as some oil loss may not be seen on the post flight but will be picked up the next day.
2. When single pilot, all checks should be completed when the aircraft is stopped. There have been several runway infringements caused by pilots doing checks on the move.
When I hear: "I'm so experienced I don't have to do this and that like you do" it translates into "I'm an accident waiting to happen"
An IRI?......Please remember that students will strive to emulate their instructor's habbits and also revise Primacy when dealsing with teaching people.
Regards,
DFC
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MH152 - Where did I say that power checks shouldn't be done? Never! Not what I said at all! If there are aspects of checks that can't be done on the roll, then there are generally more suitable places at most airfields where you can do power checks without getting in everyone's way, and can then do your pre-takeoff checks while taxiing to the hold.
DFC - Most single pilot professional pilots manage to complete checks while taxiing without blundering onto the runway. By all means, if you feel yourself getting maxed out and are worried you'll forget something, then stop - there's no shame, but I wholeheartedly disagree with your blanket statement that "When single pilot, all checks should be completed when the aircraft is stopped". When inexperienced or incompetent, yes, but most of us are perfectly capable of completing checks on the move without straying onto a runway.
DFC - Most single pilot professional pilots manage to complete checks while taxiing without blundering onto the runway. By all means, if you feel yourself getting maxed out and are worried you'll forget something, then stop - there's no shame, but I wholeheartedly disagree with your blanket statement that "When single pilot, all checks should be completed when the aircraft is stopped". When inexperienced or incompetent, yes, but most of us are perfectly capable of completing checks on the move without straying onto a runway.
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You know DFC. You and I are going to have a fall out if you don't desist from personal attacks.
You are an arrogant desk jockey who knows nothing about real aviation. You hide behind a rule book that you are not quite up to speed on and very good at misquoting it from it. More often than not it is your advice that is incorrect...............
Go out do some real flying and comment from a basis of experience. In the meantime leave those of us who actually do real flying to get on with it.
At no time have I suggested checks are skipped. I suggest you re read my posts carefully and see that I merely point out that the more you do something the quicker you become and that we have not heard both sides of the story so should not be so quick to judge.
You better get onto the airlines and have them change the way they operate if you think everything should be done the way you suggest.
If you spent less time trying to pick a fight with me and more time actually reading what I have said you would make your self look less of an asshole more of the time.
You are an arrogant desk jockey who knows nothing about real aviation. You hide behind a rule book that you are not quite up to speed on and very good at misquoting it from it. More often than not it is your advice that is incorrect...............
Go out do some real flying and comment from a basis of experience. In the meantime leave those of us who actually do real flying to get on with it.
At no time have I suggested checks are skipped. I suggest you re read my posts carefully and see that I merely point out that the more you do something the quicker you become and that we have not heard both sides of the story so should not be so quick to judge.
You better get onto the airlines and have them change the way they operate if you think everything should be done the way you suggest.
If you spent less time trying to pick a fight with me and more time actually reading what I have said you would make your self look less of an asshole more of the time.
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Some of you need to pay a visit to the hangar at Farnborough - the one where they keep the, still bloodstained, remains of aircraft which have crashed. Anyone remember G-DELS? He did a sort of pre-flight inspection and got it badly wrong. I was taught to do thorough checks and transit checks if I had only been away from the aircraft for less than an hour. I intend to live as long as I can. I shall continue to do my full checks and if it annoys you that I am taking my time to make sure that I am as safe as I can be then - HARD LUCK!
KP- True, I wasn't saying that you advocated not doing any checks. Aplogies for the unintended inference.
But I was pointing out that, in the context of the discussion about carefully completing pre-flight checks as opposed to the glance method, a PPL student better do his checks somewhere!
But I was pointing out that, in the context of the discussion about carefully completing pre-flight checks as opposed to the glance method, a PPL student better do his checks somewhere!
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This post has become polarised between those who do pre-flight checks and those that it is claimed do not.
That completely mispresents the position.
EVERY ONE AGREES PRE-FLIGHT CHECKS SHOULD BE DONE.
The real issue is the extent of these checks, and how and where they are done.
It is well worth while taking a check list of a typical aircraft and see what is actually involved and see how and where these checks can best be carried out.
That completely mispresents the position.
EVERY ONE AGREES PRE-FLIGHT CHECKS SHOULD BE DONE.
The real issue is the extent of these checks, and how and where they are done.
It is well worth while taking a check list of a typical aircraft and see what is actually involved and see how and where these checks can best be carried out.
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I think that a lot of it comes down to whether you are the sole operator of the aircraft, or whether other people use it.
As a club aircraft user I am meticulous in my checks, whether I am the first flyer that day, or whether it is 'just' a transit check. If I find one thing not quite completed on the previous shut-down checks it makes me more vigilant for what else has been forgotten.
Saying all that I can be meticulous and reasonably quick, I just have to remember not to pay lip-service to them as that can be the first hole in the cheese.....
As a club aircraft user I am meticulous in my checks, whether I am the first flyer that day, or whether it is 'just' a transit check. If I find one thing not quite completed on the previous shut-down checks it makes me more vigilant for what else has been forgotten.
Saying all that I can be meticulous and reasonably quick, I just have to remember not to pay lip-service to them as that can be the first hole in the cheese.....
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Since the temperature on this thread is already high I'll keep this personal i.e. just about me (PA28 and C172) 
Here is my ponderment.
We all agree that pre-flight checks are an essential part of keeping alive, the discussion is about when, where and how quick. As an inexperienced PPL of 250 hours I can accept the speed thing; as you become more experienced you probably can check things more quickly and no less thoruoghly than when you first started. But I do puzzle about doing the checks whilst taxiing, unless what we mean is ....
I have had three instances of checks that resulted in me not flying and all discovered before taxiing. Maybe they saved my life (and my passenger's), perhaps all would have been well. But I didn't hold anyone up, I wasn't moving, I wasn't in the way of anyone else and there was no danger to any other aircraft.
But, in fact aren't we all doing the pre-flight checks the entire pre-flight time? I do all the checks I can before taxiing, then more whilst taxiing, then the power checks (again), and so on. And then I guess the principles are the same for every aircraft with differences by type.
I don't know have any experience about the type in the post that kicked-off this thread, but I would have thought that checking for water in the tanks would be a basic check for anyone. Or is there some great technology that prevents condensation in tanks these days in light aircraft? No judgement or pretensions to expertise intended.
Here is my ponderment. We all agree that pre-flight checks are an essential part of keeping alive, the discussion is about when, where and how quick. As an inexperienced PPL of 250 hours I can accept the speed thing; as you become more experienced you probably can check things more quickly and no less thoruoghly than when you first started. But I do puzzle about doing the checks whilst taxiing, unless what we mean is ....
I have had three instances of checks that resulted in me not flying and all discovered before taxiing. Maybe they saved my life (and my passenger's), perhaps all would have been well. But I didn't hold anyone up, I wasn't moving, I wasn't in the way of anyone else and there was no danger to any other aircraft.
But, in fact aren't we all doing the pre-flight checks the entire pre-flight time? I do all the checks I can before taxiing, then more whilst taxiing, then the power checks (again), and so on. And then I guess the principles are the same for every aircraft with differences by type.
I don't know have any experience about the type in the post that kicked-off this thread, but I would have thought that checking for water in the tanks would be a basic check for anyone. Or is there some great technology that prevents condensation in tanks these days in light aircraft? No judgement or pretensions to expertise intended.
Most airfields in the UK have little security.
We had a Helicopter owner who spotted a small dark metallic smere aroung the oil tank filler (500D) when going to check his oil level first flight in the morning.
Some kind soul had topped up his oil tank with grinding paste. The smere was hardly visible and would not have been seen by someone not checking the oil.
Then there was the 150 pilot who noticed an unusual tincanning effect on the left elevator.
During the night someone had forced the elevator against the stops damaging the elevator mountings. Again hardly visible at first glance.
Blocked pitot tubes and urine in fuel tanks are other pre flight finds I have had to deal with.
Probably the worst was a house brick wedged in the nose gear of a Seneca, not visible without bending down for a good look.
If you have no enemies, all the locals love aviation and there are no pubs within walking distance well and good.
Personally I would go for the preflight every time.
We had a Helicopter owner who spotted a small dark metallic smere aroung the oil tank filler (500D) when going to check his oil level first flight in the morning.
Some kind soul had topped up his oil tank with grinding paste. The smere was hardly visible and would not have been seen by someone not checking the oil.
Then there was the 150 pilot who noticed an unusual tincanning effect on the left elevator.
During the night someone had forced the elevator against the stops damaging the elevator mountings. Again hardly visible at first glance.
Blocked pitot tubes and urine in fuel tanks are other pre flight finds I have had to deal with.
Probably the worst was a house brick wedged in the nose gear of a Seneca, not visible without bending down for a good look.
If you have no enemies, all the locals love aviation and there are no pubs within walking distance well and good.
Personally I would go for the preflight every time.
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I am the only person that flys my machine and I know it very well, I pre flight it in less than 2 mins and that includes checking oil and draining some fuel, I would see anything out of the ordinary within seconds of opening the hangar door, if theres oil or fuel on the floor or someting amis it will be 3 seconds before I noticed it.
When I do my LPC on a different aircraft, say an R44, it takes me 20 mins to go through the checklist but thats OK because I want to really check an aircrtaft flown by someone else very carefully!
Start up is the same, in my machine it takes 10 seconds to get in, strap in & start - in a hired or strange machine, it can take 10 mins.
I don't think I am complaicent, I agree with Bose, I just know my machine very well, I expect that most owner operators who only fly their machines are similarly well versed with their machines.
When I do my LPC on a different aircraft, say an R44, it takes me 20 mins to go through the checklist but thats OK because I want to really check an aircrtaft flown by someone else very carefully!
Start up is the same, in my machine it takes 10 seconds to get in, strap in & start - in a hired or strange machine, it can take 10 mins.
I don't think I am complaicent, I agree with Bose, I just know my machine very well, I expect that most owner operators who only fly their machines are similarly well versed with their machines.
I think the middle ground is being missed a bit here, and hopefully some are overstating their case.
First of all with regards to the original post. My assumption would be that the pilot had done engine runs and pre-flight checks earlier in the day. Without proof that he hadn't, I wouldn't be too quick to accuse him of poor airmanship.
Second. I have not owned an aircraft, but I fly both single pilot and multi crew in aircraft that only I or the one crew have flown for the last week. There are some basic things that must be done every day really. They include checking oil, correct fuel quantity, grade, and quality. Also the pitot needs to be checked clear and any orifices need to be checked clear of bird nest material and other contaminants.
In my opinion, a pre-flight check requires, at the very least, a walk-around, fluid check, and check of hatches and doors etc. I'd be doing this regardless of how many times I'd just flown the aeroplane. I can't do this just by glancing over the plane as I'm walking out to it, but it also doesn't take 30 minutes.
Having said that, there is no doubt, that someone who knows their aeroplane can do everything much more efficiently than someone who doesn't. This doesn't mean not doing stuff, it just means doing it a bit more quickly and probably focussing on the important bits rather than the stuff that doesn't change (such as control reversal checks when you flew it yesterday.)
As far as checks on the run go. It's easy to do that with two crew as one can look out while the other is looking in. While single pilot though, I think the least time heads down while taxiing, the better. Some checks require more heads down than others, so I find that there are some things I feel comfortable doing on the run (after landing clean-up,) and some things I don't (engine runs and before take-off checks.)
Ultimately it depends on your workload and what you are comfortable with. I don't think preferring to do checks while stopped is an indicator of "incompetance" or "inexperience" though. On the contrary, my experience is that the younger inexperienced guys who have been around just long enough to think they know what they're doing, are the most likely to try to be over efficient and do too many things at once.
First of all with regards to the original post. My assumption would be that the pilot had done engine runs and pre-flight checks earlier in the day. Without proof that he hadn't, I wouldn't be too quick to accuse him of poor airmanship.
Second. I have not owned an aircraft, but I fly both single pilot and multi crew in aircraft that only I or the one crew have flown for the last week. There are some basic things that must be done every day really. They include checking oil, correct fuel quantity, grade, and quality. Also the pitot needs to be checked clear and any orifices need to be checked clear of bird nest material and other contaminants.
In my opinion, a pre-flight check requires, at the very least, a walk-around, fluid check, and check of hatches and doors etc. I'd be doing this regardless of how many times I'd just flown the aeroplane. I can't do this just by glancing over the plane as I'm walking out to it, but it also doesn't take 30 minutes.
Having said that, there is no doubt, that someone who knows their aeroplane can do everything much more efficiently than someone who doesn't. This doesn't mean not doing stuff, it just means doing it a bit more quickly and probably focussing on the important bits rather than the stuff that doesn't change (such as control reversal checks when you flew it yesterday.)
As far as checks on the run go. It's easy to do that with two crew as one can look out while the other is looking in. While single pilot though, I think the least time heads down while taxiing, the better. Some checks require more heads down than others, so I find that there are some things I feel comfortable doing on the run (after landing clean-up,) and some things I don't (engine runs and before take-off checks.)
Ultimately it depends on your workload and what you are comfortable with. I don't think preferring to do checks while stopped is an indicator of "incompetance" or "inexperience" though. On the contrary, my experience is that the younger inexperienced guys who have been around just long enough to think they know what they're doing, are the most likely to try to be over efficient and do too many things at once.