Giving up
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Giving up
I have had about 50 hours tuition, still not upto solo standard, flown with 3 instructors, (? wearing them out) I can manage all of the various bits of circuit flying individually BUT am totally incapable of putting them all together. I realise that brain processing speed slows down with age ie late fifties but I am now thinking that there are some people whose ambition is not matched by abilty or learning capabilty. Comments, please.
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Just one perspective
Pigs,
I had a lot of difficulty getting to solo. I was flying after work, around 4 or 5 pm. The air was very rough, bumpy and gusty at that time of the day, I was so busy fighting to keep the airplane straight and level that I just couldn't get any feel for when or how much to flare. So I switched to flying before work, I think around 7 am (I had a flexible work schedule and an understanding boss). Once I started flying in the smooth morning air I picked up the flare within around 3 hrs or so.
I don't know it that has any relation to your situation, but take whatever advice from it you wish. There may be factors affecting your learning that you could find a way to alter.
Good luck!
Owen in Kansas
I had a lot of difficulty getting to solo. I was flying after work, around 4 or 5 pm. The air was very rough, bumpy and gusty at that time of the day, I was so busy fighting to keep the airplane straight and level that I just couldn't get any feel for when or how much to flare. So I switched to flying before work, I think around 7 am (I had a flexible work schedule and an understanding boss). Once I started flying in the smooth morning air I picked up the flare within around 3 hrs or so.
I don't know it that has any relation to your situation, but take whatever advice from it you wish. There may be factors affecting your learning that you could find a way to alter.
Good luck!
Owen in Kansas
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When I first started, my instructor could tell if I was stressed out from the night before, had a bad day at work etc so I resolved never to fly after work again and never fly if I had a busy evening planned the night before.
I was most relaxed when my lesson was around 10 am as it meant I had time to get up, have brekkies and get to the airfield without having to rush but didnt give me time to start thinking about what the day would be like, what if this happened, etc etc...
Perhaps you are trying too hard at the minute and your problems (as you see them) are made worse by worrying about things beforehand.
Sometimes a longer break between lessons can help, ie, take a fortnight off then resume.
I was most relaxed when my lesson was around 10 am as it meant I had time to get up, have brekkies and get to the airfield without having to rush but didnt give me time to start thinking about what the day would be like, what if this happened, etc etc...
Perhaps you are trying too hard at the minute and your problems (as you see them) are made worse by worrying about things beforehand.
Sometimes a longer break between lessons can help, ie, take a fortnight off then resume.
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The way we learn is different for everyone, but one thing remains the same, the day we stop learning is the day they nail the lid shut !!!!
At this point I would normally suggest a change of instructor but you've done that. However, have you changed instructor group as well? By that I mean are you still flying with guys that are in their 20's and are building hours for that first airline job (no disrespect there by the way, some outstanding instructors in that group) or have you tried flying with the old flying instructor, in their 50's or 60's even, maybe retired from the airlines, been teaching for 20 or 30 odd years. At your age there can be a resistance, if not at the surface, it will be there, to take instruction from a "young kid" In normal life this doesn't happen, in nearly all walks of life the person doing the training will be older than you. In the flying world this is just not the case, but hours are the ageing factor, not years. Once you accept that it might get a little easier. Try asking the CFI to take you up for an hour as a progress check.
Otherwise, I think that you are being hard on yourself, and that in itself will create a stress in the cockpit that will not make things easier for you. You've now been in the circuit for a good while, and it can be a boring place to be, and you are wondering why you are doing this? So next time ask your instructor to skip over the circuits and go for a spot of nav. Pick a field that you fancy going to and get them to teach you how to get there and back. First it will be a break from the same old circuit, it will re energise your interest (it did for me) as you can see what the benefit will be at the end of it, and chances are when you get back you'll make the perfect landing as you'll have had a nice day out, done something different and will be nice and relaxed. I am sure others here will agree with this, and if not try it anyway, what have you got to loose?
As for being 50 hours in with no solo, this is a marathon, not a sprint. Everyone gets some hang up at some stage, and one day it will all suddenly fall into place. Keep in mind that the older you are the longer it can take to master a skill. Again this is not a dig at old people, it is a matter of fact. In driving circles it is reconed that you need 1 hours tuition for every year you have. Accept this and you will be able to move on without beating yourself up anymore.
Finally if all this sounds like rubbish, ask yourself one question, why am I learning to fly? One of lifes great acheivements? Something to do? Crap, like all of us you do because you enjoy it. If you never go solo does it really matter? For that one hour a week (or whatever) you are free to travel at high speed legally and experience something that only a small handfull of the population will ever experience. The freedom of the skies, so enjoy it for what it is. I am reminded of a tale from a few years ago at a flying club in the north of england. 2 old guys used to pitch up on a Saturday morning once in a while for a spot of flying. Both in the "autumn" of their years and had one time flown military aircraft of the propellor variety in anger. One of these WW2 guys was blind, the other deaf. Obviously they couldn't hold medicals so they used to go off with an instructor, who swore that the blind pilot could fly better than a lot of sighted people, they were never going to get licences, but they enjoyed the thrill of being in the air so that's what they did.
Whatever you do, enjoy it!
At this point I would normally suggest a change of instructor but you've done that. However, have you changed instructor group as well? By that I mean are you still flying with guys that are in their 20's and are building hours for that first airline job (no disrespect there by the way, some outstanding instructors in that group) or have you tried flying with the old flying instructor, in their 50's or 60's even, maybe retired from the airlines, been teaching for 20 or 30 odd years. At your age there can be a resistance, if not at the surface, it will be there, to take instruction from a "young kid" In normal life this doesn't happen, in nearly all walks of life the person doing the training will be older than you. In the flying world this is just not the case, but hours are the ageing factor, not years. Once you accept that it might get a little easier. Try asking the CFI to take you up for an hour as a progress check.
Otherwise, I think that you are being hard on yourself, and that in itself will create a stress in the cockpit that will not make things easier for you. You've now been in the circuit for a good while, and it can be a boring place to be, and you are wondering why you are doing this? So next time ask your instructor to skip over the circuits and go for a spot of nav. Pick a field that you fancy going to and get them to teach you how to get there and back. First it will be a break from the same old circuit, it will re energise your interest (it did for me) as you can see what the benefit will be at the end of it, and chances are when you get back you'll make the perfect landing as you'll have had a nice day out, done something different and will be nice and relaxed. I am sure others here will agree with this, and if not try it anyway, what have you got to loose?
As for being 50 hours in with no solo, this is a marathon, not a sprint. Everyone gets some hang up at some stage, and one day it will all suddenly fall into place. Keep in mind that the older you are the longer it can take to master a skill. Again this is not a dig at old people, it is a matter of fact. In driving circles it is reconed that you need 1 hours tuition for every year you have. Accept this and you will be able to move on without beating yourself up anymore.
Finally if all this sounds like rubbish, ask yourself one question, why am I learning to fly? One of lifes great acheivements? Something to do? Crap, like all of us you do because you enjoy it. If you never go solo does it really matter? For that one hour a week (or whatever) you are free to travel at high speed legally and experience something that only a small handfull of the population will ever experience. The freedom of the skies, so enjoy it for what it is. I am reminded of a tale from a few years ago at a flying club in the north of england. 2 old guys used to pitch up on a Saturday morning once in a while for a spot of flying. Both in the "autumn" of their years and had one time flown military aircraft of the propellor variety in anger. One of these WW2 guys was blind, the other deaf. Obviously they couldn't hold medicals so they used to go off with an instructor, who swore that the blind pilot could fly better than a lot of sighted people, they were never going to get licences, but they enjoyed the thrill of being in the air so that's what they did.
Whatever you do, enjoy it!
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pigs are us,
There probably are a few people who can't learn to fly. However, I don't think there is any whatsoever evidence that you are one of them.
50 hours is not that many. Quite a lot of people, especially older ones, take longer than that to go solo. It took me 48 hours, and I was considerably younger than you. But most people who take this long don't boast about it in the regular My First Solo and similar types of threads on PPRuNe.
You've been given good advice so far. Don't fly when you're tired, stressed, or overworked. Work out when is a good time of the week or time of day for you, and make that a priority.
What airfield are you flying from? You live in Worcestershire, so it wouldn't surprise me if it's Shobdon. Great little airfield, but people learning to fly at airfields with only one relatively short runway sometimes take longer. If you're having problems judging things on landing, an airfield with more and longer runways, so that you can always land into wind, might help.
What do YOU think is the problem. You say you can't put the different bits of the circuit together; why? I flew with someone like that, and his problem was that he spent so long thinking what to say on the radio that he was always behind the aircraft. Your problem SOUNDS as though you are simply overloaded at present and just need more practice and to be less stressed. But I'm not a mind reader, and neither are your instructors. To a certain extent, flying training is a DIY activity - YOU need to work out why you are having problems, and maybe what would help.
You say you've had three instructors. Yes, but what three? Were they all relatively inexperienced hourbuilders? A very experienced instructor might be able to pinpoint the problem in a way someone with less instructing hours can't. Have a chat with the CFI, tell him/her what I said if you like, and find someone who can really help, not just babysit you while you fly circuits. If that doesn't work, change flying schools. It's your money and your flying and you have that right.
Don't give up yet. I know several people who thought I'd never get my PPL(A); I did, then got a PPL(H), CPL(H) and FI(H). I know someone else who was in the same situation, changed airfields and got a PPL(A), then PPL(H), twin rating, and I think she's doing (or has maybe finished) a CPL. Someone else who was in that situation teaches commercial pilots for the ATPL. Being a slowish learner doesn't mean you can't do it.
Hang in there and good luck. I look forward to reading about your first solo.
There probably are a few people who can't learn to fly. However, I don't think there is any whatsoever evidence that you are one of them.
50 hours is not that many. Quite a lot of people, especially older ones, take longer than that to go solo. It took me 48 hours, and I was considerably younger than you. But most people who take this long don't boast about it in the regular My First Solo and similar types of threads on PPRuNe.
You've been given good advice so far. Don't fly when you're tired, stressed, or overworked. Work out when is a good time of the week or time of day for you, and make that a priority.
What airfield are you flying from? You live in Worcestershire, so it wouldn't surprise me if it's Shobdon. Great little airfield, but people learning to fly at airfields with only one relatively short runway sometimes take longer. If you're having problems judging things on landing, an airfield with more and longer runways, so that you can always land into wind, might help.
What do YOU think is the problem. You say you can't put the different bits of the circuit together; why? I flew with someone like that, and his problem was that he spent so long thinking what to say on the radio that he was always behind the aircraft. Your problem SOUNDS as though you are simply overloaded at present and just need more practice and to be less stressed. But I'm not a mind reader, and neither are your instructors. To a certain extent, flying training is a DIY activity - YOU need to work out why you are having problems, and maybe what would help.
You say you've had three instructors. Yes, but what three? Were they all relatively inexperienced hourbuilders? A very experienced instructor might be able to pinpoint the problem in a way someone with less instructing hours can't. Have a chat with the CFI, tell him/her what I said if you like, and find someone who can really help, not just babysit you while you fly circuits. If that doesn't work, change flying schools. It's your money and your flying and you have that right.
Don't give up yet. I know several people who thought I'd never get my PPL(A); I did, then got a PPL(H), CPL(H) and FI(H). I know someone else who was in the same situation, changed airfields and got a PPL(A), then PPL(H), twin rating, and I think she's doing (or has maybe finished) a CPL. Someone else who was in that situation teaches commercial pilots for the ATPL. Being a slowish learner doesn't mean you can't do it.
Hang in there and good luck. I look forward to reading about your first solo.
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All good advice above. What you also might try is a little armchair flying. Find a place at home where you won't be disturbed, put a chair in the middle of the room, sit in it and close your eyes. Pretend you're in an airplane, at the hold, ready for departure. Say your radio calls out loud, make all the motions with your hands to open the throttle, operate brakes, flaps, yoke, rudder, you name it. Although it may look silly to an outsider, this exercise ingrains the "flow" of what happens in the circuit in your brains. Plus, it's much cheaper than actual flying and you can "pause" or "fast forward" as you see fit.
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As with any activity where some physical skill has to be integrated with some mental agility there can be problems related to aptitude.
However age alone is NOT necessarily one of those problems.
There are plenty on here who have taken up flying later in life.
As others have said above, the issue to to relax, not castigate yourself for every slight error. Above all, don't get so caught up in a set of "why on earth did I do that, why didn't I do this", questions whilst you are flying. That lessons learnt stuff should properly come on the ground, after flight, when you run through in your mind what happened and why - the the good things even more than the bad. An instructor might help you with this, with a through debrief after flight.
There is a similarity there with a musical performance - the biggest cause of performance breakdown is precisely what I've mentioned above - wondering why this or that note was wrong - which takes attention away from reading ahead and anticipating. Flying, in my experience, is quite like that - sometimes referred to as 'staying ahead of the aeroplane'. Anticipation of what will happen next, what you have to do next, is important, it takes time to learn, but it enables you to free your mind to cope with the unexpected if it comes. Practice on the ground, as others have mentioned, can enable you to inculcate this habit of thinking ahead.
Didn't mean to ramble on quite so much - but the message is, don't be despondent.
However age alone is NOT necessarily one of those problems.
There are plenty on here who have taken up flying later in life.
As others have said above, the issue to to relax, not castigate yourself for every slight error. Above all, don't get so caught up in a set of "why on earth did I do that, why didn't I do this", questions whilst you are flying. That lessons learnt stuff should properly come on the ground, after flight, when you run through in your mind what happened and why - the the good things even more than the bad. An instructor might help you with this, with a through debrief after flight.
There is a similarity there with a musical performance - the biggest cause of performance breakdown is precisely what I've mentioned above - wondering why this or that note was wrong - which takes attention away from reading ahead and anticipating. Flying, in my experience, is quite like that - sometimes referred to as 'staying ahead of the aeroplane'. Anticipation of what will happen next, what you have to do next, is important, it takes time to learn, but it enables you to free your mind to cope with the unexpected if it comes. Practice on the ground, as others have mentioned, can enable you to inculcate this habit of thinking ahead.
Didn't mean to ramble on quite so much - but the message is, don't be despondent.
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Whirly is packed with first class advice as usual. Heed it.
I delivered an aircraft back to a guy last week who is 78 and only learnt to fly at 60. We have another guy who is still flying at 90 and a I did a licence renewal on a married couple both flying at 83/84!!
Just keep plugging away and you will get the Euraka moment!!
I delivered an aircraft back to a guy last week who is 78 and only learnt to fly at 60. We have another guy who is still flying at 90 and a I did a licence renewal on a married couple both flying at 83/84!!
Just keep plugging away and you will get the Euraka moment!!
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My suggestion is to take a break from circuits. I was struggling like you, although only mid-20 hours, and finding it very frustrating and not coming together.
So I booked a double session and we went and visited another airfield, had a spot of lunch, then flew back. No pressure, just straight and level, occasional turns, instructor helping with the radio, navigation and landings. Found I could actually fly the plane without too much thinking. Thoroughly enjoyable. Next lesson I went solo.
So I booked a double session and we went and visited another airfield, had a spot of lunch, then flew back. No pressure, just straight and level, occasional turns, instructor helping with the radio, navigation and landings. Found I could actually fly the plane without too much thinking. Thoroughly enjoyable. Next lesson I went solo.
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I would go with Stillstandings suggestion, shortly after getting my FI ticket I got handed a student into his 60s, he had gone through many instructors and been recommended to give it up by all of them as he had been struggling with circuits for many hours, he said he was enjoying the flying and it did not really matter if he did not get to the licence but he wanted to continue. I changed the lesson plan and instead of bashing the circuit all the time we would head off locally and do general handling of all types then finish each session with just 2 or 3 circuits, the deputy CFI was amazed when I asked her to fly with him and told her she would send him solo - he finally got his PPL with about 65 hours.
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Hey.
Although i have yet to start my PPL i feel that you could still pass yours if you kept your mind on 'track' and push yourself
If you have a half decent computer, buy Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004/FSX and practice on that. Although its a game, it is quite realistic
Good luck, hope you pass soon
Although i have yet to start my PPL i feel that you could still pass yours if you kept your mind on 'track' and push yourself
If you have a half decent computer, buy Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004/FSX and practice on that. Although its a game, it is quite realistic
Good luck, hope you pass soon
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Don't give up!
Take a peice of paper, and "write" your way through the a virtual circuit a few times. Draw the circuit and write notes at each point to mentally plant the procedure.
VT
Take a peice of paper, and "write" your way through the a virtual circuit a few times. Draw the circuit and write notes at each point to mentally plant the procedure.
VT
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Thanks to everyone for so much help/advice/encouragement..too much to reply to!!!
I like the idea of one hour instruction for each year of ones age.
The temptation is always to think back and wonder why, for example, did I forget to use carb. heat 6 lessons ago!!!
I must live in the present whilst looking to the future learning from past experiences, bit philosophical that....
I fly from a field with commercial activity so, if nothing else, I can fly orbits!!! I have to say that I don't feel intimidated by all of the other aircraft in the vicinity so I can't use that as an excuse. Anyway, I am having a week with no lesson, will see what happens next week. Many thanks.
I like the idea of one hour instruction for each year of ones age.
The temptation is always to think back and wonder why, for example, did I forget to use carb. heat 6 lessons ago!!!
I must live in the present whilst looking to the future learning from past experiences, bit philosophical that....
I fly from a field with commercial activity so, if nothing else, I can fly orbits!!! I have to say that I don't feel intimidated by all of the other aircraft in the vicinity so I can't use that as an excuse. Anyway, I am having a week with no lesson, will see what happens next week. Many thanks.
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I got my PPL licence last year aged 63,after starting lessons the year before.
Solo in around 19 hrs,I was really depressed as I thought it was normal to get solo in 10 hours or less,I never asked the instructor about this and worried my self quite a bit as I thought I was learning so slowly.
I wish now that I had discussed this with them.
After the solo it all went well and I passed the skills test around 55 hrs.
It isn't a race, I was told because you solo in mega quick time does not mean you will be a better pilot.
All the instructors at the school were professional non-hour builders but I found that different instructors,although themselves excellent, had a massive influence on my performance.
The CFI noted this and I stuck with him the rest of the time.
When I was choosing a school I went to several local establishments, one asked my age and said to add 20 hrs to it (ie 83 hrs),as that would be about the time it would take to get the licence!
Well it turned out a lot better than that,so perhaps you are being too hard on yourself.
Perhaps ask around and try another school with full time older instructors, to get an appraisal of where you are.
One tip that really worked for me.
Sit in the aircraft on the tarmac or grass when they are not busy,and just look around to see what it looks like at ground level.
Take your time as they won't charge you!
Good luck,and I'm sure it will all work out fine.
Lister
Solo in around 19 hrs,I was really depressed as I thought it was normal to get solo in 10 hours or less,I never asked the instructor about this and worried my self quite a bit as I thought I was learning so slowly.
I wish now that I had discussed this with them.
After the solo it all went well and I passed the skills test around 55 hrs.
It isn't a race, I was told because you solo in mega quick time does not mean you will be a better pilot.
All the instructors at the school were professional non-hour builders but I found that different instructors,although themselves excellent, had a massive influence on my performance.
The CFI noted this and I stuck with him the rest of the time.
When I was choosing a school I went to several local establishments, one asked my age and said to add 20 hrs to it (ie 83 hrs),as that would be about the time it would take to get the licence!
Well it turned out a lot better than that,so perhaps you are being too hard on yourself.
Perhaps ask around and try another school with full time older instructors, to get an appraisal of where you are.
One tip that really worked for me.
Sit in the aircraft on the tarmac or grass when they are not busy,and just look around to see what it looks like at ground level.
Take your time as they won't charge you!
Good luck,and I'm sure it will all work out fine.
Lister
Last edited by Lister Noble; 10th Sep 2007 at 18:13.
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Whatever you do don't give up on it. And as for little mistakes like forgetting the carb heat don't dwell on it. Yes an important issue don't get me wrong. But I landed just before going off for my skills test with no fuel pump or landing light on, only realised when I went to turn them off !! We all make mistakes, that is part of being human. Learn from it and move on, simple as that, but if yu beat yourself up about it (as you are doing) then in the air the plane will get well ahead of you.
When you realise the mistake, put it right and move on. Above all else have some confidence in your abilities, because you do have some!
When you realise the mistake, put it right and move on. Above all else have some confidence in your abilities, because you do have some!
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Pigs
You are in Worcestershire - why not try some gliding at the Long Mynd - or motorgliding ? - Do a one week holiday course - condensed learning - It'll sharpen up your circuits and judgement no end, and you don't have all the radio chatter to cope with - then go back to power flying - you'll find attitude control much easier - and approaches too.
One other tip that worked for me - try to think about 15 or 20 seconds ahead of where you are - this allows you to anticipate changes and where you might be in the circuit, what you need to do (e.g carb heat) - and sing out those downwind checks out loud it really helps.
And keep going - good luck !
Arc
You are in Worcestershire - why not try some gliding at the Long Mynd - or motorgliding ? - Do a one week holiday course - condensed learning - It'll sharpen up your circuits and judgement no end, and you don't have all the radio chatter to cope with - then go back to power flying - you'll find attitude control much easier - and approaches too.
One other tip that worked for me - try to think about 15 or 20 seconds ahead of where you are - this allows you to anticipate changes and where you might be in the circuit, what you need to do (e.g carb heat) - and sing out those downwind checks out loud it really helps.
And keep going - good luck !
Arc
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Part of the reason I've still not gone solo is I struggle with the flare (one thing FSX will not help with, because it doesn't replicate the perspective and depth of vision well enough),
Maybe you need an LCD projector or 60" flatscreen ?
(I wish I had either).You might want to take a look at this thread re: landings / flaring in particular
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=291570 ... and I'm sure a search on "landings" will find many other threads here.
As for "realistic VFR scenery" for MSFS, have you played with Google Earth much ? ... and have you seen that they've recently put in a basic flight simulator http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl...38210&from=rss (instruments .. responds to joystick ...etc).
I used MSFS to prepare for my X-ctry's when getting my PPL, and even without any extra scenery add-ons it was a great help as the roads and towns were fairly accurate. When I flew the real thing a few days later it was like "deja vu "
Mike
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Pigs,
Some great ideas already in this thread, particularly about flying early to avoid turbulence ... or late in the evenings should do the same thing ... avoiding stress in your schedule etc.
Another point .. how often are you flying? If only once a week or less, it can be difficult to stay "in the groove" both physically and mentally ... which applies to almost any activity.
Along the same lines, how often are you thinking / rehearsing your flying? ... If only a few minutes worth on your to your lesson while driving in your car, that could be another major reason for lack of "knowledge retention".
Using a flight simulator IMO, is an interesting and fun way to stay at least mentally current, and will help somewhat with the physical skills as well.
For circuits, it's a good way to learn by repetition, the landing checklists and procedures until you probably won't even have to think about them (too much) in the real plane.
Mike
Some great ideas already in this thread, particularly about flying early to avoid turbulence ... or late in the evenings should do the same thing ... avoiding stress in your schedule etc.
Another point .. how often are you flying? If only once a week or less, it can be difficult to stay "in the groove" both physically and mentally ... which applies to almost any activity.
Along the same lines, how often are you thinking / rehearsing your flying? ... If only a few minutes worth on your to your lesson while driving in your car, that could be another major reason for lack of "knowledge retention"
.Using a flight simulator IMO, is an interesting and fun way to stay at least mentally current, and will help somewhat with the physical skills as well.
For circuits, it's a good way to learn by repetition, the landing checklists and procedures until you probably won't even have to think about them (too much) in the real plane.
Mike