UK Night vs FAA PPL

[mm_flynn]

Does anyone have a reference or guidance for the following situation.

An FAA pilot (not instrument rated but night qualified) wishing to fly an N-Reg in the UK at night.

The FARs very specifically say that an FAA pilot can not fly IFR or in weather less than VFR.

Originally Posted by FAR 61.3

e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:

The UK ANO says all flight at night must be IFR (or SVFR in a zone - which I will ignore for this question). Equally, the ANO envisages PPLs with a night rating flying at night (because of their IFR privileges).

At this point it would seem clear that an FAA pilot can not operate at night in the UK (even though he could exchange his licence for a UK issue one which would allow him to fly under IFR and potentially at night).

However, I have some vague memory that there may be an 'exception' allowing foreign pilots (possibly only JAR) limited IFR privileges in this circumstance.

Is my recollection correct? Does anyone have a reference?

[IO540]

This one has been around and around and then around once more but it remains one of GA's sleeping dogs.

The only thing that I recall which might be relevant is a post from a couple of years ago, here I believe, from 2Donkeys (who was an aviation journalist back then, Nigel Webb) who reported a meeting with an FAA lawyer, and the lawyer's view was that it would be OK.

Common sense (which I accept is largely irrelevant to legal matters) tells us that UK's "night=IFR" is a bogus rule anyway because VFR-only helicopters (basically, all helicopters below a twin turbine) are openly allowed to fly at night.

[DFC]

No FAA IR then no IFR in your N reg - anywhere in the world regardless of why a certain country requires flights to be in accordance with IFR.

Ireland has the exact same requirement.

You can write to the Feds and request a waiver for a specific reason.

Regards,

DFC

[Fuji Abound]

You can write to the Feds and request a waiver for a specific reason.

Correct.

Write or email the FAA - tell them that you are operating in the UK, and wish to fly at night in "VMC". You should receive their approval.

[IO540]

I agree - it's just that if somebody has actually done that, they haven't gone public with it.

[mm_flynn]

The restriction makes more sense in Ireland as they clearly intend enroute night operations to be conducted by IR rated pilots (which may well be a good idea in general). The UK one is odd where the IFR requirement, to use IO540's technical terminology, is Bogus in the sense that for a UK PPL (COCISOS) IFR vs VFR boils down to mandatory vs recommended use of quadrantals above the TA and the UK clearly intends for PPLs without an IR or IMC to be able to operate enroute at night.

(It also obviously excludes the PPL from controlled airspace other than zones and the minimum height rule exemption for being COCISOS goes away above 3000 MSL - but this is really only a factor in mountainous terrain.)

[englishal]

Only in Great Britain can we have a situation where an IR is extraordinarily expensive and "vanilla" PPLs are allowed to fly IFR, even though they cannot fly into cloud, and that at night you MUST fly IFR.

But having said that, my take on the subject is that IFR at night is not really IFR, any more than flying outside CAS with an IMC rating is *proper* IFR unless in IMC. It is flight in accordance with IFR (simulated IFR if you like) but you are on no IFR flight plan at all, you have no IFR clearance issued. A "vanilla" FAA PPL can fly "in accordance with IFR", though not on an IFR flight plan and not in cloud, so what is the difference?

What happens when you try to fly to France at night?

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by englishal

A "vanilla" FAA PPL can fly "in accordance with IFR", though not on an IFR flight plan and not in cloud, so what is the difference?

Not really in that he shouldn't be at an even 1000, can't file a FP (which is part of in accordance with in the US), needs to be squawking 1200 or a VFR flight following squawk, etc.

Originally Posted by englishal

What happens when you try to fly to France at night?

Night VFR OK so no problems - the rules seem much more similar to US rules over there than in the UK. But the French PPL shouldn't be able to fly at night in the UK either.
-----
What prompted the original question was a memory that in some JAR document this 'not real' aspect of IFR at night was recognised and allowed for in European licences (or possibly all foreign licences?) and was hoping someone had a reference or could confirm my memory has finally failed!

[englishal]

can't file a FP (which is part of in accordance with in the US),

Right, which is the big thing which determines IFR as opposed to simulated IFR .....UK night flight requires no FP - so that is not a problem, odd 000's of feet is not a problem either- we have Quadrantal rule in the UK, but that wouldn't prohibit an FAA IR from fly IFR. Transponder would not always be required in the UK either.

So from an FAA point of view, our "night IFR" is not really IFR and an FAA PPL would not be breaking any rules by flying at night.....in my view.