JAR-PPL Revalidation P1 Hours
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JAR-PPL Revalidation P1 Hours
For the purposes of revalidation through C of E, the requirement is 12 hours logged time in the 12 months preceding expiry including a minimum of 6 hours as P1, 12 take offs and landings and a one hour training flight with an instructor.
Do hours logged as P1(S) under supervision count as logged hours as P1 (pilot in command), given you are PIC albeit under supervision / observation? (check outs, conversions on type etc)
Additionally - what hours could you log as a bog standard PPL if not P1 for revalidation of a JAR-PPL through C of E?
Do hours logged as P1(S) under supervision count as logged hours as P1 (pilot in command), given you are PIC albeit under supervision / observation? (check outs, conversions on type etc)
Additionally - what hours could you log as a bog standard PPL if not P1 for revalidation of a JAR-PPL through C of E?
Looks like the old P1/s argument will start again.
P1 means you are in command and wholly responsible for the aeroplane and it's safety.
The commonly held view is that other than that you can only be P u/t in an aeroplane that does not require 2 pilots.
Another commonly held view (amongst some very senior instructors I have flown with) is that with their superior knowledge and qualifications - even if they are practically a passenger - there name will feature first in the accident report so they never in real terms relinquish command and you must book P1/S - which is good enough to add up as P1 for the revalidation hours.
I have never had it questioned at revalidation time.
In the USA they have clarified this position and there are times when you can (I am reliably informed) BOTH claim the P1 hours.
(should I wear a hard hat or just get my coat).
P1 means you are in command and wholly responsible for the aeroplane and it's safety.
The commonly held view is that other than that you can only be P u/t in an aeroplane that does not require 2 pilots.
Another commonly held view (amongst some very senior instructors I have flown with) is that with their superior knowledge and qualifications - even if they are practically a passenger - there name will feature first in the accident report so they never in real terms relinquish command and you must book P1/S - which is good enough to add up as P1 for the revalidation hours.
I have never had it questioned at revalidation time.
In the USA they have clarified this position and there are times when you can (I am reliably informed) BOTH claim the P1 hours.
(should I wear a hard hat or just get my coat).
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In the USA they have clarified this position and there are times when you can (I am reliably informed) BOTH claim the P1 hours
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There is no such thing as P1/S other than for the successful completion of check ride, i.e initial PPL, CPL, IR. There is no other way for you to log P1/s in a single pilot aircraft.
So what did you log the P1/S time for? Did you pass a skills test for something?
Passing another skills test negates the 12hrs requirement. So for example if you were renewing a JAA IR every year by test you would not need the 12hrs for revalidation by experiance. However if you were doing the IR multi engine, you would still need to renew the SEP. The LPC covers you for the flight with an Instructor.
So what did you log the P1/S time for? Did you pass a skills test for something?
Passing another skills test negates the 12hrs requirement. So for example if you were renewing a JAA IR every year by test you would not need the 12hrs for revalidation by experiance. However if you were doing the IR multi engine, you would still need to renew the SEP. The LPC covers you for the flight with an Instructor.
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Hmmm... We do throw the words around a bit don't we.
In JAR Land its no longer P1 or P u/s and wtf do you mean by a checkride? A checkride can simply be a flight with a rental company wanting to make sure you're safe before they let you use their kit.
From JAR-FCL1.080
IIRC the CAA used to say something about how you logged time during a skills test depending on whether you passed or not. That seems to have disappeared from the latest writings.
also
ergo as bose says, you can't log PICUS unless the aircraft certification or the AOC requires a co-pilot to be carried.
In JAR Land its no longer P1 or P u/s and wtf do you mean by a checkride? A checkride can simply be a flight with a rental company wanting to make sure you're safe before they let you use their kit.
From JAR-FCL1.080
(c) Logging of time
(1) Pilot-in-command flight time
(i) The holder of a licence may
log as pilot-in-command time all of the
flight time during which he is the pilotin-
command.
(ii) The applicant for or the
holder of a pilot licence may log as
pilot-in-command time all solo flight time
and flight time as student pilot-incommand
provided that such SPIC time
is countersigned by the instructor.
(iii) The holder of an instructor
rating may log as pilot-in-command all
flight time during which he acts as an
instructor in an aeroplane.
(1) Pilot-in-command flight time
(i) The holder of a licence may
log as pilot-in-command time all of the
flight time during which he is the pilotin-
command.
(ii) The applicant for or the
holder of a pilot licence may log as
pilot-in-command time all solo flight time
and flight time as student pilot-incommand
provided that such SPIC time
is countersigned by the instructor.
(iii) The holder of an instructor
rating may log as pilot-in-command all
flight time during which he acts as an
instructor in an aeroplane.
also
[Pilot-in-command under supervision.
Co-pilot performing, under the supervision of the
pilot-in-command, the duties and functions of a
pilot-in-command, provided that the method of
supervision employed is acceptable to the
Authority.]
Co-pilot performing, under the supervision of the
pilot-in-command, the duties and functions of a
pilot-in-command, provided that the method of
supervision employed is acceptable to the
Authority.]
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Mike, Come on, I did clarify what I meant by a checkride. This is an international site and I was trying to use language that would be understood by all, not to get you to switch pedant mode on for British English.
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(i) The holder of a licence may
log as pilot-in-command time all of the
flight time during which he is the pilotin-
command.
(ii) The applicant for or the
holder of a pilot licence may log as
pilot-in-command time all solo flight time
and flight time as student pilot-incommand
provided that such SPIC time
is countersigned by the instructor.
(iii) The holder of an instructor
rating may log as pilot-in-command all
flight time during which he acts as an
instructor in an aeroplane.
log as pilot-in-command time all of the
flight time during which he is the pilotin-
command.
(ii) The applicant for or the
holder of a pilot licence may log as
pilot-in-command time all solo flight time
and flight time as student pilot-incommand
provided that such SPIC time
is countersigned by the instructor.
(iii) The holder of an instructor
rating may log as pilot-in-command all
flight time during which he acts as an
instructor in an aeroplane.
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Mike .... to my original post for revalidation ....
A Certificate of Experience (CofE) for Single Engined Piston Aircraft relates to experience gained within the 12 months preceding expiry. The applicant must record at least 12 hours logged flight time, including a minimum of 6 hours as pilot in command (P1), 12 take offs and landings and a 1 hour training flight with an instructor.
I assume from your concise response that hours logged during type conversion and check outs (out of 6 week currency per club rules) can in fact be logged as P1 (I was told P1/S but lets leave that for now).
That being the case, if JAR FCL requires 12 hours logged time with a MINIMUM of 6 hours as P1, what in theory could the remaining 6 hours comprise if not P1?
As I see it all hours are P1.
A Certificate of Experience (CofE) for Single Engined Piston Aircraft relates to experience gained within the 12 months preceding expiry. The applicant must record at least 12 hours logged flight time, including a minimum of 6 hours as pilot in command (P1), 12 take offs and landings and a 1 hour training flight with an instructor.
I assume from your concise response that hours logged during type conversion and check outs (out of 6 week currency per club rules) can in fact be logged as P1 (I was told P1/S but lets leave that for now).
That being the case, if JAR FCL requires 12 hours logged time with a MINIMUM of 6 hours as P1, what in theory could the remaining 6 hours comprise if not P1?
As I see it all hours are P1.
The debate (not necessarily the rules) seems to revolve round whether any instruction was actually being given or whether the instructor was a passive observer who scrutinised what was going on but never touched the controls.
On that basis, I have been told (correctly or otherwise) that although I planned and executed the flight and received absolutely no instrction (lets say for arguments sake on a 28 day currency check) that the instructor was available to take over the piloting if the very worst happened and so must be "in command".
Indeed that the most senior, experienced or qualified person with access to the controls, in a practical sense is always ultimately the pilot in command.
On that basis their argument is that they remain P1 and I am P1/S and my P1/S counts towards my PIC hours.
Noting what was said above, perhaps if the UK position was spelt out somewhat more clearly (as I am told eventually happened in FAA land), this recurrent theme would not keep being revisited.
DGG
On that basis, I have been told (correctly or otherwise) that although I planned and executed the flight and received absolutely no instrction (lets say for arguments sake on a 28 day currency check) that the instructor was available to take over the piloting if the very worst happened and so must be "in command".
Indeed that the most senior, experienced or qualified person with access to the controls, in a practical sense is always ultimately the pilot in command.
On that basis their argument is that they remain P1 and I am P1/S and my P1/S counts towards my PIC hours.
Noting what was said above, perhaps if the UK position was spelt out somewhat more clearly (as I am told eventually happened in FAA land), this recurrent theme would not keep being revisited.
DGG
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What happens in FAA land is not relevant to the revaluation of a SEP Class rating on a JAR licence.
To all intents and purposes there is no such thing as P1/s in a PA28/C172 etc. It's something that in my view, instructors tell their hirers to log, so that they don't have to tell them log Pu/t! That is because the instructor is themselves logging P1 for the flights.
The simple question is were you are were you not the pilot in command. It would appear as if in this case the instructor was pilot in command (the operater would harldy let you be in command if you were only converting onto type, or had lost currency on type.) This is further clarrified by the fact that the instructor is logging P1, and you clearly agreed to this treatment as you logged P1/s rather than P1 yourself.
So the simple answer is that flights incorrectly logged as P1/s (ie not a JAR/CAA skills test) will not count as P1 hours for revaluation. They will however make up the balance of the 12 hours.
As you are obviously short of the 6 hours P1, you can expect that the examiner will examine your log book very carefully, and be EXTREMELY suspecious if he see that you've done 6 hours P1/s ....ie 6 CAA/JAA skills test, successfully passed!
The remainder of the hours can be any other form of flying.....principly additional P1 hours or Pu/t. It's just the minimum is 6 hours P1, but you can always have more than 6 hours P1...obviously
dp
To all intents and purposes there is no such thing as P1/s in a PA28/C172 etc. It's something that in my view, instructors tell their hirers to log, so that they don't have to tell them log Pu/t! That is because the instructor is themselves logging P1 for the flights.
The simple question is were you are were you not the pilot in command. It would appear as if in this case the instructor was pilot in command (the operater would harldy let you be in command if you were only converting onto type, or had lost currency on type.) This is further clarrified by the fact that the instructor is logging P1, and you clearly agreed to this treatment as you logged P1/s rather than P1 yourself.
So the simple answer is that flights incorrectly logged as P1/s (ie not a JAR/CAA skills test) will not count as P1 hours for revaluation. They will however make up the balance of the 12 hours.
As you are obviously short of the 6 hours P1, you can expect that the examiner will examine your log book very carefully, and be EXTREMELY suspecious if he see that you've done 6 hours P1/s ....ie 6 CAA/JAA skills test, successfully passed!
The remainder of the hours can be any other form of flying.....principly additional P1 hours or Pu/t. It's just the minimum is 6 hours P1, but you can always have more than 6 hours P1...obviously
dp
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It does seem to be a bit of a minefield
Here are the definitions from JAR-FCL
Interestingly Pilot in Command is not defined!
JAR say that
and
I would read that as saying that if you are PIC you can log PIC but if you are an instructor, acting as an instructor (i.e. not just a passenger), you can log PIC even if you are not PIC. On the face of it you could both log PIC. However bear in mind that you can't be PIC if you are not entitled to be, e.g. if your rating has expired or if you are not current to carry passengers under the 90 day rule.
I'm certain that this is a departure from recent guidance given by the CAA. but since they seem to change the rules more often than some of us change our underpants it's a but tricky to verify. (My log book contains P1 and Pu/t
)
I'd also say that you can only log PICUS if you are a co-pilot
Here are the definitions from JAR-FCL
Solo flight time:
Flight time during which a student pilot is the
sole occupant of an aircraft.
Student pilot-in-command (SPIC):
Flight time during which the flight instructor
will only observe the student acting as pilot-incommand
and shall not influence or control the
flight of the aircraft.
[Pilot-in-command under supervision.
Co-pilot performing, under the supervision of the
pilot-in-command, the duties and functions of a
pilot-in-command, provided that the method of
supervision employed is acceptable to the
Authority.]
Flight time during which a student pilot is the
sole occupant of an aircraft.
Student pilot-in-command (SPIC):
Flight time during which the flight instructor
will only observe the student acting as pilot-incommand
and shall not influence or control the
flight of the aircraft.
[Pilot-in-command under supervision.
Co-pilot performing, under the supervision of the
pilot-in-command, the duties and functions of a
pilot-in-command, provided that the method of
supervision employed is acceptable to the
Authority.]
JAR say that
(iii) The holder of an instructor
rating may log as pilot-in-command all
flight time during which he acts as an
instructor in an aeroplane.
rating may log as pilot-in-command all
flight time during which he acts as an
instructor in an aeroplane.
(1) Pilot-in-command flight time
(i) The holder of a licence may
log as pilot-in-command time all of the
flight time during which he is the pilotin-
command.
(i) The holder of a licence may
log as pilot-in-command time all of the
flight time during which he is the pilotin-
command.
I'm certain that this is a departure from recent guidance given by the CAA. but since they seem to change the rules more often than some of us change our underpants it's a but tricky to verify. (My log book contains P1 and Pu/t
)I'd also say that you can only log PICUS if you are a co-pilot
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Indeed that the most senior, experienced or qualified person with access to the controls, in a practical sense is always ultimately the pilot in command.
In theory that is perfectly correct but when did we live in an ideal world when a 30 year experienced ATPL and instructor will sit with his arms crossed and say "As you are P1, I am only available to assist, but if you don't want my help I will sit here whilst you bore us both a big hole in the ground" ???
I don't know why I rise to these things.
DGG
I don't know why I rise to these things.
DGG
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Why do you assume that a PPL would not follow a course of action that was a big part of training resulting in a happy ending for both? ... or have I just taken a bite?
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when did we live in an ideal world when a 30 year experienced ATPL and instructor will sit with his arms crossed and say "As you are P1, I am only available to assist, but if you don't want my help I will sit here whilst you bore us both a big hole in the ground" ???
When you are flying with another pilot (more or less experienced) then this is even more important. There must be NO WRESTLING for the controls during an emergency. You have a second pair of hands availble...hands that know what they are doing and can be very useful. So when flying with a second pilot you should brief on what is going to happen in the event of an engine failure, including what tasks you are going to carry out, and what tasks you are delegating to the other pilot (instructor or otherwise). This should prevent any misunderstanding. It's far too late to be arguing over who does what, after the engine has stopped.
dp
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Whopity 
.... it was a question about what is written in Air Law and JAR FCL regulations in respect of PPL licenses not a question directly related to anyones flying habits / frequency. It actually arose out a difference of opinion which nobody has categorically answered and that is whether P1/S can be logged as P1 flight time (PIC).
So far on this thread some folk say yes, some folk say no, some folk say P1/S doesn't exist!
So my point still stands if anyone can answer .... if you have to do 12 hours logged time in the 12 months leading up to revalidation for an SEP, 6 hours of which must be logged as P1, what could the other 6 hours comprise?
Air Law is an interesting topic to read again a few years after your PPL! ... VMC anyone??
.... it was a question about what is written in Air Law and JAR FCL regulations in respect of PPL licenses not a question directly related to anyones flying habits / frequency. It actually arose out a difference of opinion which nobody has categorically answered and that is whether P1/S can be logged as P1 flight time (PIC). So far on this thread some folk say yes, some folk say no, some folk say P1/S doesn't exist!
So my point still stands if anyone can answer .... if you have to do 12 hours logged time in the 12 months leading up to revalidation for an SEP, 6 hours of which must be logged as P1, what could the other 6 hours comprise?
Air Law is an interesting topic to read again a few years after your PPL! ... VMC anyone??
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From JAR-FCL
What does that mean? Search me. The man on the Clapham Omnibus might conclude that sitting in the back of an A320 counts as flight time. I think you'd find it difficult to find a Court that could disagree. Who writes this?
(ii) within the 12 months
preceding the expiry of the rating
complete 12 hours flight time in a single
engine piston aeroplane or touring
motor glider including:......
preceding the expiry of the rating
complete 12 hours flight time in a single
engine piston aeroplane or touring
motor glider including:......
Flight time:
The total time from the moment an aircraft
first moves for the purpose of taking off until the
moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the
flight.
The total time from the moment an aircraft
first moves for the purpose of taking off until the
moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the
flight.
....it was a question about what is written in Air Law and JAR FCL regulations
According to LASORS, there are only two circumstances in which PICUS or P1/US may be counted towards experience requirements -
1. If the flight was conducted in an aircraft having a Certificate of Airworthiness that requires its flight crews to include not less than two pilots, or;
2. If the pilot passes any form of flight test with a JAA or CAA Authorised Examiner.
In every other circumstance, you are either PIC or Pu/t. You may log as P1/US anything you like but the UK CAA will not count the time towards licence issue or revalidation.