ATC Hassle
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ATC Hassle
Flying today I was surprised to hear AT receiving considerable hassle from Easyjet.
It was a short series of transmits that went something along the lines:
I am ready, I am really ready, I can accpet an immedaite NOW,
in the end the controller gave in and a helicopter that was trying to cross the active was turned away.
Now given that we are all paying for these services, and in this case a considerable sum of money, had I been the heli pilot I would have been pretty peeved.
In my view the Easyjet had no priority because he was commercial traffic and I would have told him to WAIT.
It was a short series of transmits that went something along the lines:
I am ready, I am really ready, I can accpet an immedaite NOW,
in the end the controller gave in and a helicopter that was trying to cross the active was turned away.
Now given that we are all paying for these services, and in this case a considerable sum of money, had I been the heli pilot I would have been pretty peeved.
In my view the Easyjet had no priority because he was commercial traffic and I would have told him to WAIT.
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"the Easyjet had no priority because he was commercial traffic"
What on earth? ATC give priority to whoever they like, and commercial traffic (for obvious reasons) normally has priority over GA in their eyes.
Having said that, this particular guy was pretty rude it seems.
What on earth? ATC give priority to whoever they like, and commercial traffic (for obvious reasons) normally has priority over GA in their eyes.
Having said that, this particular guy was pretty rude it seems.
How much fuel does a helicopter burn? How much fuel does an A319 burn even at ground idle?
Who has a slot to meet? The helicopter or the A319?
How many people were inconvenienced by delaying the helicopter by a few minutes? How many people would have been inconvenienced if the A319 had missed its slot?
Who pays the greater navigation charge; the A319 or the helicopter?
Was the helicopter actually paying ANY navigation charges?
Could it just be that CAT is actually subsidising GA?
Who has a slot to meet? The helicopter or the A319?
How many people were inconvenienced by delaying the helicopter by a few minutes? How many people would have been inconvenienced if the A319 had missed its slot?
Who pays the greater navigation charge; the A319 or the helicopter?
Was the helicopter actually paying ANY navigation charges?
Could it just be that CAT is actually subsidising GA?
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FA wrote..
What's the definition of "we" in this scenario?
in the end the controller gave in and a helicopter that was trying to cross the active was turned away.
Now given that we are all paying for these services, and in this case a considerable sum of money, had I been the heli pilot I would have been pretty peeved.
Now given that we are all paying for these services, and in this case a considerable sum of money, had I been the heli pilot I would have been pretty peeved.
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Who pays the greater navigation charge; the A319 or the helicopter?
Who has a slot to meet? The helicopter or the A319?
What's the definition of "we" in this scenario?
I suppose the point that I was making is if you start to base it on commercial versus private etc where does it end. Does a triple 7 have priority over a 319because it is paying more, or burning more at ground idle? GA is either paying a "commercial" rate for an equal priority service, or with the rate table it should be published that you can expect a second class, second priority service, in case you want to pay for the remium service!
The controller was superb, and I increasingly find the quality of our controllers is of the very highest standard - in my view it was clear he was really unhappy with the attitude of the 319 driver, in the end he just gave in, and I dont blame him for that.
If I had been the heli driver I would have refused the orbit and thought of some good reason to do so, particularly having been cleared to cross and then told to orbit just short of the active because some Easyjet driver could not wait a few minutes!
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I did an ILS into Liverpool (IF Training sortie) recently (in a helicopter) and noticed an Easy Airbus held up at the holding point for several mins. I did feel quite guilty about time is money as we fought against a fair descent headwind. But I think I am right in saying that once anything is inside 3 miles and thus cleared to land/overshoot, you have to wait regardless of how big you are.
There was also a Dash 7 doing training visual circuits at the time who almost certainly followed me in and may well have held him up even more as I scuttled off to the peace and quiet of Hawarden.
I suppose that if your employment consists of doing a short haul route 6 or 7 legs in a day, all of these 'little delays' add up to one unhappy chappy.
What goes around comes around though, for an Auster taking 5 paces foward and 3 paces back held us up from a visual runway crossing a few days later. The differance was that I quite enjoyed watching the little chap make his 3rd and final landing (within 15 seconds) followed by a full stop in about 60 yards.
There was also a Dash 7 doing training visual circuits at the time who almost certainly followed me in and may well have held him up even more as I scuttled off to the peace and quiet of Hawarden.
I suppose that if your employment consists of doing a short haul route 6 or 7 legs in a day, all of these 'little delays' add up to one unhappy chappy.
What goes around comes around though, for an Auster taking 5 paces foward and 3 paces back held us up from a visual runway crossing a few days later. The differance was that I quite enjoyed watching the little chap make his 3rd and final landing (within 15 seconds) followed by a full stop in about 60 yards.
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Easy now, maybe they were just having a bad day, we've all had them! Bit of give and take works wonders in this business. We're not all like that, but sometimes it's nice to be expeditious if you can get away with it and depart in a gap.
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Well I was once asked by a Lear to abandon an approach so he could take off, when I was flying a PA28 on night circuits, giving his ground fuel burn as excuse. I had the right-of-way; it was an uncontrolled airport.
While my PA28 burned less fuel in the air than his Lear at idle, I dare say his boss had greater capacity to pay than I do. With avgas running at about $60 per flight hour right now, and me being a humble IT worker, I'm sure my go-around pinched me more than his boss' Lear-at-idle...
While my PA28 burned less fuel in the air than his Lear at idle, I dare say his boss had greater capacity to pay than I do. With avgas running at about $60 per flight hour right now, and me being a humble IT worker, I'm sure my go-around pinched me more than his boss' Lear-at-idle...
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In the US on a downwind join at Ormond, from around 5 miles out, I had a guy in a Bonanza effectively tell me to get the hell out of his way - He then preceeded to fly *very* close, right up my back until I broke off for an orbit just outside the downwind.
The tower guys were not impressed and he ended up having to give them a call from the FBO.
There are impatient idiots in every hobby or profession though - flying's no different.
The tower guys were not impressed and he ended up having to give them a call from the FBO.
There are impatient idiots in every hobby or profession though - flying's no different.
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Rules of the Air are there for a reason. If a pilot is willing to forego his right of way then that's his choice to do so as a matter of courtesy. It's not the right of the other pilot to demand that the rules are ignored for his own benefit.
If another pilot asks if I can do something outside the rules, and it's put in a nice manner (as a request), and won't jeopardise the safety of my own flight, then I'll most likely comply. If it's not done in that manner then they can go look up the rules again whilst they're waiting for me to finish my manouevres
If another pilot asks if I can do something outside the rules, and it's put in a nice manner (as a request), and won't jeopardise the safety of my own flight, then I'll most likely comply. If it's not done in that manner then they can go look up the rules again whilst they're waiting for me to finish my manouevres
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This is an interesting viewpoint. Should the price of a beer be higher for you as an IT worker who can afford to fly than the same beer served to an unemployed person? If not why not? If this question is irrelevant then the ability of someone to pay for Jet fuel is irrelevant also. The Lear owner might also argue that his time is many times more valuable than yours, too!
The guy in the Lear might have a deadline to meet, and was probably looking to conserve every pound of fuel. There is a big debate to be had, but it is certainly true that business aviation adds value to the economy, and arguably should get priority.
Why do you fly? Is it for pleasure? If so surely the go around and extra 5 minutes for a circuit gave you even more pleasure!
The guy in the Lear might have a deadline to meet, and was probably looking to conserve every pound of fuel. There is a big debate to be had, but it is certainly true that business aviation adds value to the economy, and arguably should get priority.
Why do you fly? Is it for pleasure? If so surely the go around and extra 5 minutes for a circuit gave you even more pleasure!
In my case, I was flying for night currency, doing my 5 night takeoffs and landings. No other reasons; arguably that's so I can carry passengers at night for their...and my...good pleasure but the purpose of the flight was strictly currency.
What was asked of me was to execute a night go-around, a procedure that is not without risk. True, it was a valuable exercise for me to practice, but IMHO, it was an unreasonable request especially since I was on a touch-and-go, not a full-stop landing with backtrack; the delay would be minimal. As was mentioned, the rules of the air were written to ensure order. Of course, if he had preceded his callsign with "medevac", I would be obliged to give the right of way. But just for his good pleasure, I think it was within my right to insist on not having to do a night go-around just so he could make his boss happy about saving a few pennies on fuel burn...or due to poor planning and not taking on enough fuel (his destination was Montreal, about 10 minutes away in the Lear...).
In the event, I did, relucantly go around; and added a circuit to my flight.
To put it into perspective, I was once landing when Canada's Prime Minister was in the circuit, in a Citation. I was ahead of the Citation in the circuit. I knew who was on-board (it was obvious from all the RCMP security vehicles on the field; the former PM had a summer residence close to my home field, CZBM). I offered to let him go first, but the pilot said "no, you're ahead of us and have plenty of time to land, we'll extend our downwind". Rather gallant of them. Of course in that case I was the one (in part at least) footing the bill...my tax dollars at work.
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An interesting set of replies from the UK contingent on who has or should have priority.
The published guidelines suggest (training excepted) that it is broadly first come first serve with ATC flexing this to get the most capacity out of the system. Many places seem to do this. The comments from (some of) those that seem to be pilots and ATCOs suggest some places may have an undocumented Commercial First priority (and some airlines may think they should be first).
I personally think the based flag carrier should have priority over all other movements, except low fuel emergencies for competitors that have been holding to allow the Main User to stay on time (particularly up-start long haired competitors who should stay in music)
The published guidelines suggest (training excepted) that it is broadly first come first serve with ATC flexing this to get the most capacity out of the system. Many places seem to do this. The comments from (some of) those that seem to be pilots and ATCOs suggest some places may have an undocumented Commercial First priority (and some airlines may think they should be first).
I personally think the based flag carrier should have priority over all other movements, except low fuel emergencies for competitors that have been holding to allow the Main User to stay on time (particularly up-start long haired competitors who should stay in music)
Last edited by mm_flynn; 20th Aug 2007 at 17:02.
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The guy in the Lear might have a deadline to meet, and was probably looking to conserve every pound of fuel. There is a big debate to be had, but it is certainly true that business aviation adds value to the economy, and arguably should get priority.
but I don't get reasoning which suggests the poorest pilot should have priority.
In the UK the Rules of the Air set priority, followed by tactical adjustment by ATC (if being provided) for the overall good of all airspace users. Some UK ATC do however then apply a further 'priority' which is presumably based on who pays the most (some regional airfields which will hold you forever for a commercial aircraft still on a 10 mile final come to mind). In the abscence of ATC, then the Rules apply unless the pilots agree to modify them.
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Beechnut still hasn't said why ability to pay comes into it.
I can accept an air safety argument, and I can accept that rules of the air are all to do with safety, but I don't get reasoning which suggests the poorest pilot should have priority.
I can accept an air safety argument, and I can accept that rules of the air are all to do with safety, but I don't get reasoning which suggests the poorest pilot should have priority.
As it was, I had legal priority and was under no obligation, as was said, to pay for his poor planning (assuming his planned fuel load was marginal).
It was his use of the economic argument that was wrong (in fact that was his argument: "we're sitting here burning xxx pounds per hour" were his words). Or maybe it was an operational argument...see above ref. marginal fuel load.
In any case he got what he wanted, and I got out of his way.
Last edited by BeechNut; 21st Aug 2007 at 01:42.
I think the EZY bashing is a bit harsh. Considering they have around 150 aircraft I guess if there's was one or two bad eggs it doesn't make every pilot in the company that way. By the way, was this pilot English? Sometimes things can be lost in translation and what he/she was saying may have been perfectly reasonable in their native language (if you know what I mean).
It's not unusual for pilots to tell the tower that they can accept an immediate departure as this let's the tower know that you won't hang about completing checks, you'll enter and start rolling and it means the tower will perhaps squeeze you into a gap that they otherwise would make you hold for. This allows maximum utilisation of the runway and is good airmanship.
I would think that if the EZY was overly pushy it was because he was on a slot and if you miss your slot the next one is usually in excess of an hour away. If that was the case tho, it would be good for the controller to say to the Helicopter pilot that he had an aircraft on a slot to get away.
It's not unusual for pilots to tell the tower that they can accept an immediate departure as this let's the tower know that you won't hang about completing checks, you'll enter and start rolling and it means the tower will perhaps squeeze you into a gap that they otherwise would make you hold for. This allows maximum utilisation of the runway and is good airmanship.
I would think that if the EZY was overly pushy it was because he was on a slot and if you miss your slot the next one is usually in excess of an hour away. If that was the case tho, it would be good for the controller to say to the Helicopter pilot that he had an aircraft on a slot to get away.
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I would think that if the EZY was overly pushy it was because he was on a slot and if you miss your slot the next one is usually in excess of an hour away.
If a pilot is going to miss their slot I can assure you - it's normally down to reasons OTHER than ATC.
Chillimonster.
I wasn't suggesting that ATC didn't know about the slot, I realise they do. I was suggesting that the EZY wanted the tower to know they'd be ready for an immediate departure so that the tower could then make their decision on the order of events, rather than the tower planning on letting the EZY go first only to find out that the cabin is not yet secure and it cannot accept the clearance.
In my experience the ground and tower controllers are excellent at sorting slots out. If they realise you're not quite going to make it they'll apply for a 5 minute extension, they plan well to make sure that aircraft on slots are not stuck behind non restricted aircraft at the holding point, and what's more once they've given you a start clearance they'll normally launch you off regardless of whether you are more than 5 minutes early or greater than 10 minutes late. I have the utmost respect for ATC and I think they do a superb job.
What I was really trying to point out for the benefit of those thinking "so what if the EZY misses it's slot" was that the subsequent delay could be a long one possibly causing the EZY to go back and get more fuel. This is why the pilot would be very keen to make sure the tower knew he was ready.
I guess it’s also possible that the captain asked the FO to tell the tower they’d be ready for an immediate departure but because the FO never used those words the captain wasn’t happy that the message was understood so asked the FO to tell them again using the exact phrase. Who knows, perhaps it was just a rude impatient FO, but that sort of personality doesn’t really sit well with the EZY culture and I’d be surprised if it would get through the selection process.
SW
I wasn't suggesting that ATC didn't know about the slot, I realise they do. I was suggesting that the EZY wanted the tower to know they'd be ready for an immediate departure so that the tower could then make their decision on the order of events, rather than the tower planning on letting the EZY go first only to find out that the cabin is not yet secure and it cannot accept the clearance.
In my experience the ground and tower controllers are excellent at sorting slots out. If they realise you're not quite going to make it they'll apply for a 5 minute extension, they plan well to make sure that aircraft on slots are not stuck behind non restricted aircraft at the holding point, and what's more once they've given you a start clearance they'll normally launch you off regardless of whether you are more than 5 minutes early or greater than 10 minutes late. I have the utmost respect for ATC and I think they do a superb job.
What I was really trying to point out for the benefit of those thinking "so what if the EZY misses it's slot" was that the subsequent delay could be a long one possibly causing the EZY to go back and get more fuel. This is why the pilot would be very keen to make sure the tower knew he was ready.
I guess it’s also possible that the captain asked the FO to tell the tower they’d be ready for an immediate departure but because the FO never used those words the captain wasn’t happy that the message was understood so asked the FO to tell them again using the exact phrase. Who knows, perhaps it was just a rude impatient FO, but that sort of personality doesn’t really sit well with the EZY culture and I’d be surprised if it would get through the selection process.
SW