Joining on long final...... why?

[hugh flung_dung]

White Shadow: rather than doing what you describe, why not consider just flying down the deadside at (or just below) circuit height and then breaking onto downwind when there's a suitable gap? It only adds a couple of minutes and will remove the risk of causing irritation or worse to those that you haven't seen (it's also easier to fly than a straight-in approach and allows you to save time in the descent to circuit height)

HFD

[FullyFlapped]

An OHJ is certainly the default, but I don't know why more people don't get taught about IP joins.

Just out of interest, I was originally trained at a well-known regional intergalactic spaceport. I was never shown a OHJ at all during my entire training ... and I wonder how many others that applies to ?

As to IP joins - works for me (but then like most people, I'm quite happy to join in whichever way works best for all concerned), but wouldn't this simply complicate the issue even more, particularly for the more inexperienced amongst us ? Do you not have to have established (and therefore presumably published?) IP's ?

I'm no expert on these approaches, so feel free to educate me !

FF

[FREDSIMTH]

At an uncontrolled airfield, if a straight-in approach seems useful, and there's traffic in the circuit, my radio call is - "G**** joining long final, two in sight downwind", eg.
(lets them know I've seen them)
WS

White shadow - You must have very good eyesight to see downwind traffic from 4+ miles

[White Shadow]

Joining on long final

hfd -
Agreed. Maybe I should have said "if a SIA seems appropriate"
I was thinking - excellent visibility; easy to adjust speed to let them in first; not a busy circuit; someone on the ground waiting for the aircraft; ready to go around if necessary; etc
WS

[White Shadow]

Joining on long final

Fred.
Don't expect to at four miles. Just set up the approach, and continue until I can see downwind traffic clearly (good vis. only, remember)
WS

[hugh flung_dung]

FF: No, you don't need a published IP, or to call "initials" - it's actually very easy and safe.
Just fly parallel to the runway while descending for the last couple of miles (or from the edge of the ATZ), call "joining deadside", fly along the deadside of the runway at circuit height (or very slightly below so you can see downwind traffic against the sky), and then turn onto downwind at an appropriate point to fit-in.

IMNSHO straight-in approaches at uncontrolled fields should be banned

I'm somewhat surprised that you weren't taught OHJs, but I guess it just got missed by accident.

HFD

[Jumbo Driver]

Originally Posted by Hugh flung_dung

FF: No, you don't need a published IP, or to call "initials" - it's actually very easy and safe.
Just fly parallel to the runway while descending for the last couple of miles (or from the edge of the ATZ), call "joining deadside", fly along the deadside of the runway at circuit height (or very slightly below so you can see downwind traffic against the sky), and then turn onto downwind at an appropriate point to fit-in.

I agree, you don't have to call "Initials" - in any event this would confuse matters as AFAIK it is not recognised "civil speak". It is the same as those pseudo-mil guys who insist on calling "Finals" when they are really only Late Downwind ...

(tin hat on ...)


JD

[englishal]

Just fly parallel to the runway while descending for the last couple of miles (or from the edge of the ATZ), call "joining deadside", fly along the deadside of the runway at circuit height (or very slightly below so you can see downwind traffic against the sky), and then turn onto downwind at an appropriate point to fit-in.
IMNSHO straight-in approaches at uncontrolled fields should be banned
I'm somewhat surprised that you weren't taught OHJs, but I guess it just got missed by accident.

So....when I am joining from the deadside or have completed my descending turn to circuit height from an OHJ, are you going to give way to me on your "parallel deadside no one knows what you are doing approach"? Seems about as "bad" as a straight in approach, except on a straight in approach everyone knows what you are doing.

Also you have to bear in mind that it is pretty much only uncontrolled fields (bar a few ) that use the OHJ. Try and OHJ at Bournemouth for example and you'll either meet a Falcon or bust Solent's airspace.

I am not sure why in the UK we get so hung up about idiotic stuff like this. Who cares how someone joins. If someone joins on a long final so what, aircraft on downwind can either turn inside if there is space, or turn behind if not....it really is very easy. But of course we seem to suffer from Air Rage over here, and despite us flying perfectly everyone else shows appalling airmanship.

I must have shown appalling airmanship the other day when I joined Old Sarum on base leg, with someone just turning downwind. Shock horror, I landed and cleared the active and was no bother to them whatsoever.
Over and out.

[hugh flung_dung]

englishal: the path flown is exactly the same as a go-around so I don't understand your concern - and since neither of us are in the circuit at that point the normal rules of the air apply.

Regarding Bournemouth, absolutely right - that's why I was discussing uncontrolled fields. You should be taught all types of join regardless of where you train.

Regarding Old Sarum - I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. As long as you fitted-in safely, joined on the correct base and didn't fly an airliner approach I'm sure nobody thought anything other than "welcome". If you were the wally who insisted on turning the wrong way then the thoughts were probably not as kind.
Next time you're there on a Saturday ask for "Dave", I'll buy you a tea to show you how friendly and welcoming we are

HFD

[Over_Shoot]

Initials join

In my experience, initial joins should be used more in the civilian world, IP is normally 3 miles out on the deadside, allows you to clearly the see all the traffic in the circuit without any problems. Spacing is easier to judge and you can turn into the circuit whenever there is a suitable gap.

I find OHJs a particularly clumsy way to join the circuit, normally struggling to ident other traffic against the backdrop of the ground below. Therefore I avoid unless they are absolutely necessary. At civilian airfields I prefer downwind/crosswind joins unless I know the airfield has no problems with me carrying out an initials join.

OS

[Jumbo Driver]

An Initials Join (whatever that is) should NOT be used at a civil airfield because most other pilots will not be familiar with the procedure.

Safety is about many things and, in the visual circuit, it is about seeing and being seen; amongst other things, it relies to a very large degree on understanding what the other aircraft is likely to be doing.

Initials Join, Run-and-Break and other pseudo-mil procedures may have their place - at military airfields - but until they are accepted (and published) procedures in the civil world, they should NOT be used at civil airfields.

Common sense, really ...



JD

[White Shadow]

Joining on long final

Going back to the original thread title -
Usually, the time I join on long final (to an uncontrolled airfield) is on coming home after a cross-country, and when my course to the field is somewhere near the runway-in-use direction.
I talk to the airfield radio for that, and listen-out to hear who else is joining, or in the circuit, and (hopefully) making the usual circuit calls.
WS

[Pitts2112]

I've taken to doing little-known Standard Underhead Join, based on my experience as mentioned by HFD - not being able to see other traffic against the backdrop of the ground. I approach the dead side at about 250ft AGL so I can see all other traffic against the sky. Makes establishing SA very easy.

Then, since I know where everyone else is, and I can sequence myself in, I'll then call "G-XXXX, climbing dead side", zoom-climb up to circuit height and turn crosswind from there.

Easy really.

Pitts2112

[fireflybob]

Well some of us are old enough to recall a Chipmunk landing on top of another Chipmunk at Nottingham (Tollerton) in the 1960s. Guess what? The one on top had done a long straight in approach and was also non radio (and incidentally had not PPRed). Very fortunately all came away unscathed - miraculously the (solo) pilot of the lower a/c had his shoulder harness cut by the rotating prop of the other aircraft!.

One advantage of the SOJ (assuming it is being flown what I would term as "correctly" is that the descent is being conducted in turning flight. This means that the airspace below the aircraft is being continuously cleared for other aircraft. I cringe when I see guys descending on the dead side in a straight line parallel to the runway! The descending turn also means a better view of the landing runway where aircraft taking off, touching and going, going around and on initial climbout may be easily observed and a sensible decision made as to how to fit into the pattern without disrupting traffic already in the circuit. Whichever way you join the circuit you should be in level flight BEFORE entering the live side.

[Knight Paladin]

Jumbo - I agree, an "Initials" join, should not be mentioned at a civil airfield, as you risk confusing other pilots .... however, flying the same procedure, omitting the Initials call, and referring to your actions as a "deadside" join strikes me as easy to understand. The procedure involved is (in my opinion) at least equally safe as an OHJ, and definately more efficient when joining from anywhere within 90 degrees of the runway heading. I also think that civil pilots lack of understanding of this basic piece of military teaching is an oversight in the training system; as I've described above I think it has many benefits to offer.

Pitts - Love it mate, spot on! Might have to rename my deadside joins!

The important thing to note about an Initials/Deadside join is that you must most definately remain on the deadside, to avoid confliction with circuit traffic turning base/final and on final.

[englishal]

Regarding Old Sarum - I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. As long as you fitted-in safely, joined on the correct base and didn't fly an airliner approach I'm sure nobody thought anything other than "welcome". If you were the wally who insisted on turning the wrong way then the thoughts were probably not as kind.
Next time you're there on a Saturday ask for "Dave", I'll buy you a tea to show you how friendly and welcoming we are

Actually I was just using LS as an example of why not to OHJ and how easy it is to join from all parts of the circuit without disrupting other people (I didn't turn the other way ).

Thanks I'll take you up on the offer of a tea though. I know you guys are a good bunch which is why I want to do the aero's course there (you don't work there do you?). If you see an aeroplane land with Breitling painted down the side it could well be me

[hugh flung_dung]

if you decide to do an aeros course on Saturdays at OS we will almost certainly be flying together - by the end of the course (one of the best you can do, and the Bulldogs are perfect for it) I may even manage to convince you of the benefits of what we've discussed above.

Send me a PM if you want to get in touch to discuss the course.

HFD

[IO540]

All this stuff has been done to death on pilot forums many times.

There isn't any way to arrive at an airfield which is inherently safe. Some offer you a better view of the existing traffic than others; that's all.

IMHO, the OHJ is one of the worst because if several planes arrive together (which is likely, because at many airfields it is only when ATC can't cope that the OHJ is requested) they will end up orbiting all at 2000ft and any one of them can't possibly be visual with all the others. The procedure relies on each one seeing traffic in front - they can't see what's behind. But different pilots have different views of the "correct" diameter of the orbit.

With a straight in, one is flying straight ahead, thus has a low cockpit workload, and is in a good position to have a good look around for other traffic.

It's true that one cannot join a tightly packed circuit from a straight in, but one can't join a tightly packed circuit from any other arrival method, either

A straight in join also offers the potential, for anyone with TCAS, and assuming everybody is transponding, to check for traffic in a rather more robust way.

I think that many pilots are suspicious of the OHJ in that it is regarded as the "goode olde English proper RAF way" and gets over-used, sometimes deliberately to make life hard. I recall going regularly to Panshanger a few years ago, and there was some masochist (GA is full of these types) on the radio, a PPL instructor I believe, who would firmly request (even though he had no legal right to do this) an OHJ, for what was a RH circuit (i.e. the most difficult combination to visualise), and I am sure he just sat there and laughed his head off at all the pilots who did the wrong entry etc. With the proximity of Luton this probably resulted in a few pilots shooting off in the wrong direction...

[Knight Paladin]

Not sure why the OHJ could be regarded as the "RAF" way, at least not for the last 60 odd years....

[Mikehotel152]

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I've often tried to visualise how to perform a standard overhead join when you're approaching from the deadside.

Of course, it would be sensible to descend deadside and then join crosswind in those circumstances but, as IO540 said about Panshanger with a RH circuit and masochist controller, pilots often find themselves being forced to perform an unusual or unexpected join.

Am I right in thinking that - in the above example of a RH circuit - a pilot arriving from the deadside and receiving instructions to perform a SOJ should overfly the upwind end of runway at 2000ft AGL, make a 180 degree right turn (all turns in circuit direction) so crossing over the active runway threshold at 2000ft AGL and then descend back on the deadside in the usual way?