What aircraft to buy ?
Pompey till I die
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What aircraft to buy ?
I've done all of my training in a PA28. I'm now looking to buy a share in a PA28 because I'm confident with that.
Looking around though, why ? The Mooney is very attractive. An extra gallon an hour for an extra 55kts cruise speed. This means that the North of France is only 40mins away instead of an hour.
Why would anyone buy a PA28 or C172 when the Mooney seems to do all of the things these aircraft do but MUCH faster!
I also love the look of the Pitts but think it may get a bit cold up there at times!
Looking around though, why ? The Mooney is very attractive. An extra gallon an hour for an extra 55kts cruise speed. This means that the North of France is only 40mins away instead of an hour.
Why would anyone buy a PA28 or C172 when the Mooney seems to do all of the things these aircraft do but MUCH faster!
I also love the look of the Pitts but think it may get a bit cold up there at times!
Last edited by PompeyPaul; 10th Aug 2007 at 07:48. Reason: Post went to quickly
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Maintenance and running costs.
PA28 or C172=Fixed under carraige fixed pitch prop=cheaper to maintain than rectractable under carraige and wobbly prop.
Plus you would need to do a few hours complex diferences training and get signed off.
Other than that I would say it is horses for courses.
PA28 or C172=Fixed under carraige fixed pitch prop=cheaper to maintain than rectractable under carraige and wobbly prop.
Plus you would need to do a few hours complex diferences training and get signed off.
Other than that I would say it is horses for courses.
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IMHO you would be well advised to get a few more hours under your belt before flying a Mooney or a Bonanza.
They are great aeroplanes, but require a defter touch than a PA28 and also more forward planning, and flexibility when the plan changes.
If you wish to go retract, an Arrer is the natural step up.
They are great aeroplanes, but require a defter touch than a PA28 and also more forward planning, and flexibility when the plan changes.
If you wish to go retract, an Arrer is the natural step up.
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I also love the look of the Pitts but think it may get a bit cold up there at times!
A four seat aluminium tourer to a single or two seat "rag and tube" aerobatic biplane - I suggest that you really decide what your normal "mission profile" looks like and equip suitably.
The Pitts transition trg will probably take twice as long as the Mooney assuming you have no tail wheel time. As for being cold up there, well dress accordingly and only go as high as you safely need to.
Best is to go fly with someone in a Pitts and see if it really is your bag. They are noisy, uncomfortable, basic VFR and have limited range. And I wouldn't be without one!!
A to B is entirely possible and I spend a good amount of time Norfolk to the west country, to the Midlands, to Yorkshire, to the Continent. The thing to note is that there really isn't space to nav/plan as you would in a PA28. I put everything on my chart: the route, the wind, the waypoints, the time/dist markers, frequencies - cos it's hard to read the printed ones as you vibrate along at 150mph. It trims only in pitch, you need one hand on the stick and as a tyro pilot you will find it difficult to tune the radio, reset the GPS one-handed without departing from straight and level. Impossible, hell no but it is not the same as having a kneeboard, a PLOG, a chart and a stable platform that will remain where it is pointed whilst you scribble down clearances, etc.
For the price of a four seat Piper, I know of a very nice low houred six seat Cherokee - that might be just your ticket!
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I know of a very nice low houred six seat Cherokee - that might be just your ticket!
I converted onto a 6-300 at 74 hours.
Lovely aeroplane, good way to learn about flying and in particular the importance of weight and balance.
Also significantly faster in the cruise than a PA28.
I converted onto a 6-300 at 74 hours.
Lovely aeroplane, good way to learn about flying and in particular the importance of weight and balance.
Also significantly faster in the cruise than a PA28.
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Why would anyone buy a PA28 or C172 when the Mooney seems to do all of the things these aircraft do but MUCH faster!
Go for the Mooney!! No doubt!!
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Friend of mine has a mooney. He converted onto that at 60 hours and he reckoned it took him ten hours to feel ahead of the aircraft. Mooneys are fantastic aircraft, they do require a defter topuch but they are not difficult to fly. You need to be careful to get the speed off for the circuit as they do not want to slow down. Ive flown with him quite a bit and find the mooney very nice to fly and very responsive. With the hersey bar gear on some models,there is very little to go wrong with the gear. Only thing I find is they are cramped in the cabin, but hey its streamlined for speed. Go get a mooney and enjoy it!
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OK, buying your first aircraft is actually quite a big step unless I suppose funds are no object what so ever.
There is usually a good reason why certain things are popular, and aircraft are no exception.
Pipers and Cessnas are the Ford of light aircraft as you probably know. They are simple to fly, are reasonable for touring, make a good instrument platform and most importantly, the parts are in plentiful supply, not too expensive and nearly everyone can carry out the service work.
However, if you are thinking of joining a group or buying your own aircraft a host of other factors should drive your decision.
1. How do you intend to use the aircraft? Are you going to tour (a lot), what about taking friends and family, is speed important,
2. Are you going to do an IR or IMC? Realistically your use of any aircraft will be severely restricted without. If you are, is the aircraft you are going to buy equipped to operate IFR?
3. Do you want to expand the flying you do. You will find fast retractables a reasonable step up from the aircraft you have been flying. Many better groups will require 100 hours P1 and some an IMC. If you are buying outright, or joining a group, you will need to consider how you are going to gain the extra experience you need.
4. Almost anything fast and slippery will cost rather more than just the extra fuel to run. It just seems to be the rule. In fact it probably stems from the fact that most fast aircraft are more complex, so there is more to go wrong. Moreover, I suspect the manufacturers feel if you could afford to buy a faster and therefore almost certainly more expensive aircraft in the first place, you can also afford greater running costs!
5. New aircraft may seem costly but the current generation of diesels with modern avionics and good nose to tail warranties and reasonable re-sale values may result in significantly cheaper flying in the long term. Never under estimate the cost of running an aircraft compared with the initial capital outlay for anything more than ten years old.
6. Consider trying a few different types. If you make the effort you will be surprised how many types of aircraft can be hired even if it is with a club instructor. By doing so you may just feel this is the one for you.
There is usually a good reason why certain things are popular, and aircraft are no exception.
Pipers and Cessnas are the Ford of light aircraft as you probably know. They are simple to fly, are reasonable for touring, make a good instrument platform and most importantly, the parts are in plentiful supply, not too expensive and nearly everyone can carry out the service work.
However, if you are thinking of joining a group or buying your own aircraft a host of other factors should drive your decision.
1. How do you intend to use the aircraft? Are you going to tour (a lot), what about taking friends and family, is speed important,
2. Are you going to do an IR or IMC? Realistically your use of any aircraft will be severely restricted without. If you are, is the aircraft you are going to buy equipped to operate IFR?
3. Do you want to expand the flying you do. You will find fast retractables a reasonable step up from the aircraft you have been flying. Many better groups will require 100 hours P1 and some an IMC. If you are buying outright, or joining a group, you will need to consider how you are going to gain the extra experience you need.
4. Almost anything fast and slippery will cost rather more than just the extra fuel to run. It just seems to be the rule. In fact it probably stems from the fact that most fast aircraft are more complex, so there is more to go wrong. Moreover, I suspect the manufacturers feel if you could afford to buy a faster and therefore almost certainly more expensive aircraft in the first place, you can also afford greater running costs!
5. New aircraft may seem costly but the current generation of diesels with modern avionics and good nose to tail warranties and reasonable re-sale values may result in significantly cheaper flying in the long term. Never under estimate the cost of running an aircraft compared with the initial capital outlay for anything more than ten years old.
6. Consider trying a few different types. If you make the effort you will be surprised how many types of aircraft can be hired even if it is with a club instructor. By doing so you may just feel this is the one for you.
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seems to do all of the things these aircraft do but MUCH faster!
I'd get some more experience for a while if I were you, in various aeroplanes. When I went from basic 172's / PA28's to the Arrow soon after getting my PPL even with that modest speed increase the aeroplane was getting ahead of me.
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It's like having a mosquito bite; It itches but try not to scratch it!
Like you I was keen to buy a share in a complex (arrow) as soon as I got my PPL, but luckily for me, thefirst group I got involved in turned out to be a time-wasting disaster!
After a while trawling the small ads looking for shares to buy, I had had test flights in quite a few different aeroplanes, and came to understand how no one aeroplane was going to meet my needs.
I also discovered that harmonious groups are a minority group!
I now prefer to adopt the three Fs rule, and am quite content!
That's not to say I WON'T buy anything, (if anyone knows of a nice cheap chippy project let me know
)
I suppose it would help if you had some enthusiastic friends or partner who will be willing and able to accompany you on whatever flights you choose to undertake, but I found that once all of my friends had had their "flying in light aircraft" experience and parted with their share of the costs, flying became a solitary past-time and it became difficult to motivate myself to go anywhere. (I don't mind my own company but it gets VERY expensive, not only in terms of cash, but in terms of time spent in a selfish indulgence{browny points are hard to score!})!
Anyway.......I'm beginning to ramble. (Just finishing my first friday night beer!) (Mckewans Champion at 7.2%)
I've recently discovered aeros and have renewed enthusiasm....
In a nutshell:
I suggest you wait a while and get some more experience under your belt in order that you may find out which type of flying you are happiest spending you hard earnt cash on.
Unless of course you cash isn't hard earnt, in which case you can do it all you lucky sod!
Ooops, bottle's empty, time to go to the fridge again.....
Like you I was keen to buy a share in a complex (arrow) as soon as I got my PPL, but luckily for me, thefirst group I got involved in turned out to be a time-wasting disaster!
After a while trawling the small ads looking for shares to buy, I had had test flights in quite a few different aeroplanes, and came to understand how no one aeroplane was going to meet my needs.
I also discovered that harmonious groups are a minority group!
I now prefer to adopt the three Fs rule, and am quite content!
That's not to say I WON'T buy anything, (if anyone knows of a nice cheap chippy project let me know
)I suppose it would help if you had some enthusiastic friends or partner who will be willing and able to accompany you on whatever flights you choose to undertake, but I found that once all of my friends had had their "flying in light aircraft" experience and parted with their share of the costs, flying became a solitary past-time and it became difficult to motivate myself to go anywhere. (I don't mind my own company but it gets VERY expensive, not only in terms of cash, but in terms of time spent in a selfish indulgence{browny points are hard to score!})!
Anyway.......I'm beginning to ramble. (Just finishing my first friday night beer!) (Mckewans Champion at 7.2%
)I've recently discovered aeros and have renewed enthusiasm....
In a nutshell:
I suggest you wait a while and get some more experience under your belt in order that you may find out which type of flying you are happiest spending you hard earnt cash on.
Unless of course you cash isn't hard earnt, in which case you can do it all you lucky sod!
Ooops, bottle's empty, time to go to the fridge again.....
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These questions are unfortunately largely pointless because if you ask 50 pilots what plane they like you will get 50 different answers. This is not a cheap hobby, and anybody who bought a plane will obviously like the one they have bought. A bit like spending £500 on speaker cables - they must sound good.
Aircraft design is a compromise and always will be. Different planes place the compromises in different places.
The thing I would suggest is this: look hard at what you really want to do, and then make a commitment. The longer you hang around the (usually) decrepit self fly hire scene the more likely you are to get sick of flying old crap, and chuck it in.
If you want to go places, then buying something with decent performance early on is a good idea. 150kt is only a bit quicker than 100kt and it takes only hours to get used to it. I now wish I had done this sooner, rather than wasting a year renting old junk.
Plenty of people have done their whole PPL in a TB20. Not in the UK of course, but in the Far East. Here, the instructors would cringe at the idea of somebody learning at > 100kt.
Why would anyone buy a PA28 or C172 when the Mooney seems to do all of the things these aircraft do but MUCH faster!
It sounds like you have a decent budget. The answer is that most people in UK GA are skint, and there are plenty of PA28s and C172s, 20-30 years old, going for say £20k-£40k. These old airframes require lots of expensive maintenance but if you haven't got the capital to buy a new one, you have no choice...
I can't speak for a Mooney since I have never flown one but they are regarded as somewhat cramped. This is where the efficiency comes from - a narrow cockpit offers less drag. BTW, you won't get an extra 55kt for 1 extra GPH - I suggest you verify any such claims.
Aircraft design is a compromise and always will be. Different planes place the compromises in different places.
The thing I would suggest is this: look hard at what you really want to do, and then make a commitment. The longer you hang around the (usually) decrepit self fly hire scene the more likely you are to get sick of flying old crap, and chuck it in.
If you want to go places, then buying something with decent performance early on is a good idea. 150kt is only a bit quicker than 100kt and it takes only hours to get used to it. I now wish I had done this sooner, rather than wasting a year renting old junk.
Plenty of people have done their whole PPL in a TB20. Not in the UK of course, but in the Far East. Here, the instructors would cringe at the idea of somebody learning at > 100kt.
Why would anyone buy a PA28 or C172 when the Mooney seems to do all of the things these aircraft do but MUCH faster!
It sounds like you have a decent budget. The answer is that most people in UK GA are skint, and there are plenty of PA28s and C172s, 20-30 years old, going for say £20k-£40k. These old airframes require lots of expensive maintenance but if you haven't got the capital to buy a new one, you have no choice...
I can't speak for a Mooney since I have never flown one but they are regarded as somewhat cramped. This is where the efficiency comes from - a narrow cockpit offers less drag. BTW, you won't get an extra 55kt for 1 extra GPH - I suggest you verify any such claims.
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I suggest you wait a while and get some more experience under your belt in order that you may find out which type of flying you are happiest spending you hard earnt cash on.
You've only just got your PPL; it's highly unlikely you know what sort of flying you really want to do, and it certainly sounds from your post like you don't.
Do you want a fast tourer? Do you want something responsive and aerobatic? Do you want to land on short grass strips regularly? Do you want to be able to load up your aircraft with family and friends and luggage?
You won't get an aircraft that will do all those things well. They may get one that does all of them after a fashion, or one that is extremely good at one or two of them. So which of those would you prefer?
Don't buy yet. Don't even buy a share, unless hiring for any length of time where you fly from is impossible. Get used to being a pilot, get more experience, and find out what you really like doing. Ask around, talk to owners, sit in their aircraft, find out more both about groups and about ownership. Try out different aircaft, particularly taildraggers or much faster aircraft, to see if you like the reality, or just the idea.
Then, and only then, will you be in a position to decide on what you want to do.
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BTW, you won't get an extra 55kt for 1 extra GPH - I suggest you verify any such claims.
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Quite right
At our airfield there are a number of newly-minted PPLs who have the dream of touring in a fast complex a/c.
The cold and painful reality is that until you have got some considerable time in the air (and get yourself instrument and night qualified) a complex aircraft is a step too far - unless you have shedloads of money.
Far better to experiment for a bit and find out what you want to do. Certainly don't rush into a share.
At our airfield there are a number of newly-minted PPLs who have the dream of touring in a fast complex a/c.
The cold and painful reality is that until you have got some considerable time in the air (and get yourself instrument and night qualified) a complex aircraft is a step too far - unless you have shedloads of money.
Far better to experiment for a bit and find out what you want to do. Certainly don't rush into a share.
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If your ambition is to eventually move up to a complex single then you wouldn’t go far wrong in choosing the AA5B Tiger as a transition plane. The Tiger as all Grumman singles teach you the importance of speed control and stabilized approach which I understand is an important factor in most complex singles such as the Mooney/Bonanza.
In the past most people I know who moved on from the AA5B went on to such aircraft including now the Cirrus’s, jumping past the PA28 retrack’s.
In the past most people I know who moved on from the AA5B went on to such aircraft including now the Cirrus’s, jumping past the PA28 retrack’s.
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Which one
PP
You'd not be wasting your time if you had a ride in 2-seat Jodel (cheap to operate) and also an RV6 or RV7 (not quite so cheap)
Both are OK for strips, and the RV series will definitely put a smile on your face whilst doing 160mph with no effort at all ! Both are VFR machines.
There's more to flying than traipsing about in a rather dull 4 place people mover (Reims Rocket excluded ) but if you need IMC capability a 4-place solidly stable tourer will be a help.
The basic question is do you want to fly for pure enjoyment, or to get from a to b ?
You'd not be wasting your time if you had a ride in 2-seat Jodel (cheap to operate) and also an RV6 or RV7 (not quite so cheap)
Both are OK for strips, and the RV series will definitely put a smile on your face whilst doing 160mph with no effort at all ! Both are VFR machines.
There's more to flying than traipsing about in a rather dull 4 place people mover (Reims Rocket excluded ) but if you need IMC capability a 4-place solidly stable tourer will be a help.
The basic question is do you want to fly for pure enjoyment, or to get from a to b ?