The European PPR disease
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The European PPR disease
I've just planned a 3500nm trip around Europe.
IFR, it took under an hour to work out the (Eurocontrol) routings. If this was the USA, one could just GO. But not in Europe.
It took four weeks (total time frame, not the actual time spent on it, obviously) to
- phone the various duff phone numbers in the Jeppesen guides (quite a few belong to private houses); none of these had English speaking staff on them. Why not publish a verified number for ATC?
- fax the various fax numbers in the Jeppesen guides (god knows where some of them end up, and quite a few are duff)
- deal with the replies (fax and email - I always give an email address, and the "smarter" airports, usually E European ones, use email) and ask the questions they didn't answer the first time
- apply for PPR (sometimes have to give an exact date)
- sometimes, repeat the exercise for the resident avgas supplier to make sure they will be open, and have some avgas...
- wait
Yet, in almost every case I have experienced, the airport was big enough to accomodate the whole of the country's air force, or the entire European Netjets fleet, so why PPR?
It's bad enough in the UK, turning up near some piece of grass and they turn you away because you didn't phone them up, but at least I can half understand it because they had to do a planning deal with their local authority. That is the only valid excuse IMHO for a permanent PPR requirement.
All those RAF airfields one can't just fly to, but which are virtual ghost airports... 24hr PPR for Cosford for example.
IFR, it took under an hour to work out the (Eurocontrol) routings. If this was the USA, one could just GO. But not in Europe.
It took four weeks (total time frame, not the actual time spent on it, obviously) to
- phone the various duff phone numbers in the Jeppesen guides (quite a few belong to private houses); none of these had English speaking staff on them. Why not publish a verified number for ATC?
- fax the various fax numbers in the Jeppesen guides (god knows where some of them end up, and quite a few are duff)
- deal with the replies (fax and email - I always give an email address, and the "smarter" airports, usually E European ones, use email) and ask the questions they didn't answer the first time
- apply for PPR (sometimes have to give an exact date)
- sometimes, repeat the exercise for the resident avgas supplier to make sure they will be open, and have some avgas...
- wait
Yet, in almost every case I have experienced, the airport was big enough to accomodate the whole of the country's air force, or the entire European Netjets fleet, so why PPR?
It's bad enough in the UK, turning up near some piece of grass and they turn you away because you didn't phone them up, but at least I can half understand it because they had to do a planning deal with their local authority. That is the only valid excuse IMHO for a permanent PPR requirement.
All those RAF airfields one can't just fly to, but which are virtual ghost airports... 24hr PPR for Cosford for example.
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IO, I don't know where you are going, but in my various travels I've never had to do PPR, outside the UK, that is.
Could this be a self-imposed and UK-flying induced disease ?
Could this be a self-imposed and UK-flying induced disease ?
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On the contrary, 172driver, about 50% (on a very quick guess; I could spend time on this) of international airfields in Europe are listed as PPR in the AIP.
For a quick exercise, start with Greece. LGSA is anything from 4 working days to 2 weeks according to who you ask. LGKR varies according to time of year.
I've just planned a flight to EDWN, which also lists PPR.
Which is not to say that if you just fly to these places they will refuse the landing, or you will get arrested. Well, in Egypt you might in fact get arrested... but most people are not that anally retentive.
Whereas if you fly to say Duxford without having got PPR they will in fact refuse a landing (they did recently).
If you never bothered with PPR and did a lot of flying around Europe, you probably just got away with it. The other day I read a story about a pilot who flew a Robin from UK to Cape Town and back, via Egypt, Sudan, etc. He must have either used an overflight permit company, or just got away with it. Presumably he must have used mogas, or had a huge ferry tank.
For a quick exercise, start with Greece. LGSA is anything from 4 working days to 2 weeks according to who you ask. LGKR varies according to time of year.
I've just planned a flight to EDWN, which also lists PPR.
Which is not to say that if you just fly to these places they will refuse the landing, or you will get arrested. Well, in Egypt you might in fact get arrested... but most people are not that anally retentive.
Whereas if you fly to say Duxford without having got PPR they will in fact refuse a landing (they did recently).
If you never bothered with PPR and did a lot of flying around Europe, you probably just got away with it. The other day I read a story about a pilot who flew a Robin from UK to Cape Town and back, via Egypt, Sudan, etc. He must have either used an overflight permit company, or just got away with it. Presumably he must have used mogas, or had a huge ferry tank.
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Well, IO, while probably nowhere near as much as you, I have done quite a bit of flying around Europe and have, honestly, never come across this. Never been to Greece, though. I always file a flight plan and yes, I do always check the AIP. Perhaps I'm lucky
As for EDWN, as the German AIP is AFAIK not online, cannot check, but their website doesn't say anything about PPR.
Re the chap doing UK-CT, would be interesting to know how he handled the Avgas situation. I've recently done some flying in Africa and this is most definitely something to plan for
As for EDWN, as the German AIP is AFAIK not online, cannot check, but their website doesn't say anything about PPR.
Re the chap doing UK-CT, would be interesting to know how he handled the Avgas situation. I've recently done some flying in Africa and this is most definitely something to plan for
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Flown all over France and never PPR'd
Flew in Greece to Corfu (Kerkira) LGKR and Heraklion LGIR and again did not PPR
Only form of advance notice was an ATC Flight Plan if VFR international or IFR.
I find there are more UK GA airfields that require PPR than there are in France.
Flew in Greece to Corfu (Kerkira) LGKR and Heraklion LGIR and again did not PPR
Only form of advance notice was an ATC Flight Plan if VFR international or IFR.
I find there are more UK GA airfields that require PPR than there are in France.
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It is my job to fly to such places at very short notice. Although of course our ops department deals with that side, I sometimes have to get involved.
I suggest if you are serious about it get hold of a copy of Ac-U-Kwik for numbers, or even better subscribe to the online info. The phone and fax numbers seem to be kept up to date, we use them a lot. Also use handling agents if you can afford it (not always expensive, sometimes very dear; always check), as they will sort this kind of detail within a few minutes and the help they can give when you are there can be invaluable, especially when you have to change plans!
In my experience airfields don't actually require notice beyond a flight plan. Sometimes we use no handling, other times information is not passed on as it should be, yet in 18 months of flying all over Europe I have never had my right to approach querried except by UK Special Branch (their foul up, not ours!). Remember "PPR" might not mean a phone call is required. A flight plan or even a call on the radio is sufficient for most, but they might not accept non-radio traffic without a prior phone call and might reserve the right (not generally excercised) to refuse approach.
Oh, and if you're flying round France make sure you either know the RT in French or have a crib sheet. I always carry one!
I suggest if you are serious about it get hold of a copy of Ac-U-Kwik for numbers, or even better subscribe to the online info. The phone and fax numbers seem to be kept up to date, we use them a lot. Also use handling agents if you can afford it (not always expensive, sometimes very dear; always check), as they will sort this kind of detail within a few minutes and the help they can give when you are there can be invaluable, especially when you have to change plans!
In my experience airfields don't actually require notice beyond a flight plan. Sometimes we use no handling, other times information is not passed on as it should be, yet in 18 months of flying all over Europe I have never had my right to approach querried except by UK Special Branch (their foul up, not ours!). Remember "PPR" might not mean a phone call is required. A flight plan or even a call on the radio is sufficient for most, but they might not accept non-radio traffic without a prior phone call and might reserve the right (not generally excercised) to refuse approach.
Oh, and if you're flying round France make sure you either know the RT in French or have a crib sheet. I always carry one!
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Life's a Beech - thank you for the lead; just ordered the worldwide edition. Not sure what it will do for the W&B though 
It was $140 including delivery. They don't seem to list a Europe-only edition, or at least I did not find one. It will pay for itself even if just the phone/fax numbers are right.
I have never doubted that in general one can "just land". Too many people have done crazy trips around the world, had loads of adventures on the way, didn't (usually) get into much trouble. I am just trying to do things right, whatever that means. When I fax the airport re any PPR requirements and avgas, etc, they often do reply that they want X hours notice.
This doesn't mean one can't just go, I suppose... Last year I got refused a landing (on the initial fax contact) at Venice (Tessera) saying they were closed to GA, but nothing was notamed and the place isn't PPR, so I am sure that if I had not faxed them to check re avgas and just stuck the IFR flight plan in, they would not have stopped me from landing there. But... while they officially list avgas, they didn't actually have any, so the landing would have been a bit pointless (with Trieste and Padova just down the road, both having Customs and avgas).
Edit: I take it you people must have been referring to the smaller "2007 International Airport/FBO Directory"
It was $140 including delivery. They don't seem to list a Europe-only edition, or at least I did not find one. It will pay for itself even if just the phone/fax numbers are right.I have never doubted that in general one can "just land". Too many people have done crazy trips around the world, had loads of adventures on the way, didn't (usually) get into much trouble. I am just trying to do things right, whatever that means. When I fax the airport re any PPR requirements and avgas, etc, they often do reply that they want X hours notice.
This doesn't mean one can't just go, I suppose... Last year I got refused a landing (on the initial fax contact) at Venice (Tessera) saying they were closed to GA, but nothing was notamed and the place isn't PPR, so I am sure that if I had not faxed them to check re avgas and just stuck the IFR flight plan in, they would not have stopped me from landing there. But... while they officially list avgas, they didn't actually have any, so the landing would have been a bit pointless (with Trieste and Padova just down the road, both having Customs and avgas).
Edit: I take it you people must have been referring to the smaller "2007 International Airport/FBO Directory"
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Take Easy Jet, then go to the USA to get the flying fix 
That's what I'm planning later this Autumn..to circumnavigate the USA. But you are right in your PPR thing. On a 1200nm X/C in the USA we didn't get PPR once and talked to ATC twice - once on departing for the trip and once on arrival back - because it was a towered airport. All other airfields (by that I mean places like Sedona etc...) were non tower - we did give way to a scheduled Dash 8 though at one place. We had traffic / weather / XM satellite radio onboard.....
If only Europe was like this, life would be perfect....
That's what I'm planning later this Autumn..to circumnavigate the USA. But you are right in your PPR thing. On a 1200nm X/C in the USA we didn't get PPR once and talked to ATC twice - once on departing for the trip and once on arrival back - because it was a towered airport. All other airfields (by that I mean places like Sedona etc...) were non tower - we did give way to a scheduled Dash 8 though at one place. We had traffic / weather / XM satellite radio onboard.....
If only Europe was like this, life would be perfect....
Africa
UK to Cape Town and back, via Egypt, Sudan, etc. He must have either used an overflight permit company, or just got away with it
I've looked up the barrel of an AK47 after arriving WITH confirmed overflight and landing clearances in Africa, you dont just get away with this on that continent...
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He had an overflight permit company/did the homework and paperwork before he left...
I now understand completely...
These firms charge significant (but not unreasonable) fees, of the order of £100 for a landing permit in say Egypt. So far I have avoided this option but maybe that should change.
I also think that some of the people who have got away with this in some real far away places (Africa comes to mind) got away with it because the officials thought the pilot (of something hanging together with bits of wire and canvas) must be so totally nuts he must be harmless. I don't think he would have got away with it if he landed a turboprop - especially a U.S. registered one
I now understand completely...
These firms charge significant (but not unreasonable) fees, of the order of £100 for a landing permit in say Egypt. So far I have avoided this option but maybe that should change.
I also think that some of the people who have got away with this in some real far away places (Africa comes to mind) got away with it because the officials thought the pilot (of something hanging together with bits of wire and canvas) must be so totally nuts he must be harmless. I don't think he would have got away with it if he landed a turboprop - especially a U.S. registered one
I would gladly pay the GBP100 for them to deal with that red tape, having frequented african airfields often over the past 15 years, I will not personally take my chances with the local officials thinking I'm 'harmless' because of the machine I'm flying...
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Four weeks!
FFS! I've never had more than a week's notice for any trip I've planned. Can do Europe to Oz in that time. Planned/organised SA to UK in 3 days this month.
I do use a clearance specialist - but he's not expensive and I can't be bothered to chase third-world government depts myself very often.
Of course, I do tend to use those airports that aren't a PITA to use.......they deserve our business!
FFS! I've never had more than a week's notice for any trip I've planned. Can do Europe to Oz in that time. Planned/organised SA to UK in 3 days this month.
I do use a clearance specialist - but he's not expensive and I can't be bothered to chase third-world government depts myself very often.
Of course, I do tend to use those airports that aren't a PITA to use.......they deserve our business!
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540:
How dare a military airfield, with it's own task to achieve, insist on you, with your mighty "airways" machine, calling them beforehand. Surely you should just be able to turn up whenever you like, at which point they should dig out the red carpet and feel honoured that you have graced them with your prescence.
Get over yourself.
I can understand your annoyance at finding the wrong numbers listed in the various flight guides; I have had the same problem myself on numerous occasions, but I can't agree with you on a general dig at PPR - it's common courtesy, and enables the airfield in question to ensure you're correctly briefed on any local rules and procedures.
How dare a military airfield, with it's own task to achieve, insist on you, with your mighty "airways" machine, calling them beforehand. Surely you should just be able to turn up whenever you like, at which point they should dig out the red carpet and feel honoured that you have graced them with your prescence.
Get over yourself.
I can understand your annoyance at finding the wrong numbers listed in the various flight guides; I have had the same problem myself on numerous occasions, but I can't agree with you on a general dig at PPR - it's common courtesy, and enables the airfield in question to ensure you're correctly briefed on any local rules and procedures.
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I 'phoned an airport down south in France once.
Can I come I said - please.
Qui - why are you 'phoning.
Well, stammer, I sort of thought I should.
We are an airport, that's what airports do and muttering under his breath - mad Anglais.
Trouble is a lot of places in Europe hold a different view.
Sorry, and I just have to recount my last visit to Duxford - or near visit.
Can we land please?
Why.
Well, we thought it would be pleasant.
(About three aircraft on the ground, nothing happening, seemed like a good idea)
Have you PPRed?
No.
Well you cant. If only you had 'phoned first.
Well, what about if we land at Cambridge and then 'phone.
Well, we might let you.
So what about if we phone you from the aircraft.
Much spluttering, and grumbling and something about taking the proverbial.
(now I dont mind at all being told to foxtrot something, a polite request and we are too busy today or something like that, but sometimes the way we and other places approach these things is just daft)
Can I come I said - please.
Qui - why are you 'phoning.
Well, stammer, I sort of thought I should.
We are an airport, that's what airports do and muttering under his breath - mad Anglais.
Trouble is a lot of places in Europe hold a different view.
Sorry, and I just have to recount my last visit to Duxford - or near visit.
Can we land please?
Why.
Well, we thought it would be pleasant.
(About three aircraft on the ground, nothing happening, seemed like a good idea)
Have you PPRed?
No.
Well you cant. If only you had 'phoned first.
Well, what about if we land at Cambridge and then 'phone.
Well, we might let you.
So what about if we phone you from the aircraft.
Much spluttering, and grumbling and something about taking the proverbial.
(now I dont mind at all being told to foxtrot something, a polite request and we are too busy today or something like that, but sometimes the way we and other places approach these things is just daft)
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enables the airfield in question to ensure you're correctly briefed on any local rules and procedures.
IFR ??
There are these amazingly handy things called approach plates, STARs, SIDs. There are also them big and damn confusing thingz called airways charts although I tend to use them as sunscreens.
Wot you do is you call up Approach and they clear you for the approach, then you fly that approach, then you (hopefully) land.
Most of the rest of the aviation world (i.e. the USA) manages to get by without PPR. And why 24hr PPR?
Anyway, a briefing can be handled by a document on the airfield's website.
Flyingfemme - I too have found that the overflight agents can magically bypass this stuff. Presumably they know exactly the right people to "sweeten up". They can even get you a crew visa, overnight, which normally takes weeks and weeks, through that particular country's UK embassy.
IFR ??
There are these amazingly handy things called approach plates, STARs, SIDs. There are also them big and damn confusing thingz called airways charts although I tend to use them as sunscreens.
Wot you do is you call up Approach and they clear you for the approach, then you fly that approach, then you (hopefully) land.
Most of the rest of the aviation world (i.e. the USA) manages to get by without PPR. And why 24hr PPR?
Anyway, a briefing can be handled by a document on the airfield's website.
Flyingfemme - I too have found that the overflight agents can magically bypass this stuff. Presumably they know exactly the right people to "sweeten up". They can even get you a crew visa, overnight, which normally takes weeks and weeks, through that particular country's UK embassy.
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There are these amazingly handy things called approach plates, STARs, SIDs. There are also them big and damn confusing thingz called airways charts although I tend to use them as sunscreens.
. (I know you IO and any serious IFR pilot does).
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540:
Would you expect to be allowed to take a short-cut across a military base if it would save you a walk around the outside? No, probably not. So why then do you expect to be able to turn up unannounced and land at one? I'm a big supporter of allowing cicvil use of military airfields, but you have to accept that there will be some limitations on it - prior notice being one of them, to allow the airfield ops staff to make the necessary arrangements with their guard force at the very least. Can't you realise the value to you of speaking to a real person at the other end, who can brief you on factors pertinent to YOUR arrival - aircraft type, time of day, that airfield's particular operations that day ..... or do have some kind of flagrant disregard for anything approaching professionalism?
Please don't get me started again on your personal crusade to paralyse the airways structure of this country by insisting on flying in it in a puddlejumper. Surely it would be quicker to just fly in a straight line with a LARS than cause the fine people at swanick nightmares with your groundspeed....
Would you expect to be allowed to take a short-cut across a military base if it would save you a walk around the outside? No, probably not. So why then do you expect to be able to turn up unannounced and land at one? I'm a big supporter of allowing cicvil use of military airfields, but you have to accept that there will be some limitations on it - prior notice being one of them, to allow the airfield ops staff to make the necessary arrangements with their guard force at the very least. Can't you realise the value to you of speaking to a real person at the other end, who can brief you on factors pertinent to YOUR arrival - aircraft type, time of day, that airfield's particular operations that day ..... or do have some kind of flagrant disregard for anything approaching professionalism?
Please don't get me started again on your personal crusade to paralyse the airways structure of this country by insisting on flying in it in a puddlejumper. Surely it would be quicker to just fly in a straight line with a LARS than cause the fine people at swanick nightmares with your groundspeed....