Edge 540 or sukhoi su-29

[Commanche 260]

Which is the superior aerobatic machine.
Something to talk about.

[waldopepper42]

WAC 2007 - two Edge 540s, placed 31st and 44th.
Twenty nine SU 26s and 31s, two in the medals.

Q.E.D?

I assume that, for better comparison, you meant to include single seat SUs against the single seat E-540?

[Right Stuff]

I don't think that's an entirely sound basis for comparison; the Edge is a relative newcomer to the scene and hasn't achieved mass market penetration yet.

On paper at least it is a higher performance aircraft and the fact that any of the serious contenders in the red bull air races are flying them shows they have outclassed their western rivals in that field.

Has anyone flown both of them?

[SFCC]

I know of atleast two guys that have...but they will be far too busy to look here i think

[Zulu Alpha]

aerobatics competition is very different to the Red Bull air race. Aerobatics requires precision RBAR needs speed and manoeuvrability.

The Edges have one disadvantage for competition, their leading edge is very straight i.e. the wings are not swept back. Therefore for competition aeros it is easy for the judges to see whether you are going straight up or not.

So the answer depends on what you want to do and how good you are. There are only a handful of pilots than could exploit the differences

For me the Edge wins out, mainly because of the lower fuel bill!!!

ZA

[eharding]

Not sure that the fuel bill difference is that much - at the North Weald formation week, a typical Extra 300 fuel bill will be on a par with, if not higher, than the Yak 52 bill (and both are in major trouser accident territory). Hours flown by the Extras are slightly less than the Yaks, and the Extras are generally spending more time in hoon mode, but the Yaks are lugging around a lot of agricultural metal. The Sukhoi has the same engine, but doesn't have the Farmers' Weekly weight penalty. The fuel burn on the Edge would presumably be on a par with an Extra 300.

I think a quite few of us know a couple of blokes with a 540 and a 26 each.....I did offer one of them a straight swap for the Pitts for the 540 at the pumps at WW a while back....I'd have even thrown in a full tank of fuel. No dice.

[Right Stuff]

Worth a try though! Didn't realise there were any based in the UK

[Zulu Alpha]

the Farmers' Weekly weight penalty.

Do you mean the 20 oz steak and trimmings?!!!!

I didn't realise the IO540 was quite so thirsty, maybe it will have to be the Extra 200 after all!!!

See you at the nationals.

[waldopepper42]

I don't think that's an entirely sound basis for comparison

It's an entirely unsound basis! I couldn't find a tongue in cheek symbol so settled for instead

However, comparing Red Bull and WAC is equally unsound. Like comparing Formula 1 cars with drag racers. The requirements are completely different. Speed and agility for RB, accuracy, gyroscopics and vertical penetration for WAC.

Bottom line - the chance to fly either one wouild do me just fine!

[eharding]

Originally Posted by DJ

I didn't realise the IO540 was quite so thirsty, maybe it will have to be the Extra 200 after all!!!

See you at the nationals.

The one issue is that with an IO540 you can manage the mixture more efficiently than with the Ivchenko, where you get what you're given from the barometric mixture-control widget.

[waldopepper42]

you can manage the mixture more efficiently than with the Ivchenko, where you get what you're given from the barometric mixture-control widget.

Which makes the Ivchenko more efficient, right?

For aerobatic power settings, don't you normally just leave the setting full rich, to avoid having to make changes during the rapid climbs and descents? Whereas the Ivchenko is continuously changing the setting to get the most efficient?

(This is a question, not a challenge )

[eharding]

Originally Posted by Waldopepper42

Which makes the Ivchenko more efficient, right?

For aerobatic power settings, don't you normally just leave the setting full rich, to avoid having to make changes during the rapid climbs and descents? Whereas the Ivchenko is continuously changing the setting to get the most efficient?

(This is a question, not a challenge )

That assumes that the barometric mixture control is set up properly, which can be a fiddly business. In any case, its not the fuel burn in a competition sequence at issue - I don't know of anyone who has time to play with the mixture during a competition flight - but the amount you burn going from one end of the country to the other to get to the competition is what DJ is concerned about....

[markkal]

The Sukhoi has got vertical penetration the Edge will not be able to match.
The 360 HP Russian radial develops so much torque and that big 260cm prop upfront will keep you hovering til the engine cooks off.

But the Edge with his thinner profile sleek lines and featherweight will go faster around the track.

If Redbulling, take the Edge, otherwise i would get the roaring Sukhoi "chopper" for airshows or competition..

Fuel consumption ?????

When you can afford such machines, I guess you wouldn't care..

Remember you are 100% Full Throttle in a Race with the Lycoming - all levers forward- red line on the RPM, 150 liters / hour

The big Russian radial on a chunky Sukhoi will swallow the same quantity, but will all that extra drag, does not make sense to go full throttle unless you are involved on the world free style championship...

[BackPacker]

aerobatics competition is very different to the Red Bull air race. Aerobatics requires precision RBAR needs speed and manoeuvrability.

Isn't Walter Extra designing a new wing for the Extra 300, specifically for the RBAR? Reason being, so I read somewhere, that the 300 was designed for competition aerobatics, which at that level are negative g's half of the time. So it's got a symmetric wing profile. But the RBAR is mostly, or maybe even exclusively, positive g's. That's why an asymmetric wing profile would be better and that's what he's designing and testing now, not?

[Lunchmaster]

I'm pretty sure that Red Bull racer Nicolas Ivanoff has been flying the new Extra since the middle of the last season. It has the asymetric wing and is designed more as a racing machine that aerobat. I think at least one of the other racers has also got the new Extra this year.

Lunchmaster

[egbgstudent]

So if we are taking fuel efficiency into account as well, who can discount that great aerobatic steed the C152 Aerobat, or even the Tipsy Nipper?