PA28 180 Take off
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Jerry B12:
Can't help but notice you're posting from Arizona:
Can you confirm which units you are talking about, Kts or MPH.? How is the mainscale of your ASI calibrated?
Our PA28, an aged American import has the ASI primarily calibrated in MPH with a smaller scale marked in Kts.
Interestingly however, the POH figures are all nice tidy multiples of 5 and 10 mph e.g. Vr 80mph, Max angle climb 80 mph. best glide 105mph, glide approach 95 mph, clean stall 70mph, that I use these figures rather than mess about with ugly conversions into Kts>
Naturally I use Kts in route planning but as it happens cruise is a nice tidy 135kts.
Not a problem, we in aviation are all used to interchangeable SI, Imperial and downright archaic (I mean, inches for Altimeter settings
?) in the practise of our hobby/occupation, but it can bite yer b*m if you mix the units at an in appropriate moment.
Safe flying
Cusco
Can't help but notice you're posting from Arizona:
Can you confirm which units you are talking about, Kts or MPH.? How is the mainscale of your ASI calibrated?
Our PA28, an aged American import has the ASI primarily calibrated in MPH with a smaller scale marked in Kts.
Interestingly however, the POH figures are all nice tidy multiples of 5 and 10 mph e.g. Vr 80mph, Max angle climb 80 mph. best glide 105mph, glide approach 95 mph, clean stall 70mph, that I use these figures rather than mess about with ugly conversions into Kts>
Naturally I use Kts in route planning but as it happens cruise is a nice tidy 135kts.
Not a problem, we in aviation are all used to interchangeable SI, Imperial and downright archaic (I mean, inches for Altimeter settings
?) in the practise of our hobby/occupation, but it can bite yer b*m if you mix the units at an in appropriate moment.Safe flying
Cusco
Blah Blah Blah
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For me to get it of the ground at 55 kts with 4 pob + bags I have to pull in 2 stages of flap when I reach 55kts. The aircraft hops off the ground quiet nicely then. You just need to then keep the nose down until she builds up to about 65 - 70kts before you start climbing. I do a lot of short strips and i find that the best way to get it off the ground early on.
And you wont read that in the POH
And you wont read that in the POH
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if you are in Arizona at this time of the year, temperature and density atlitude are something to consider as others have said. It will mainly affect the power you will be getting out of your engine.
If you don't lean the mixture before takeoff according to density altitude you will be way too rich and losing lots of power (of the little you have left at that density altitude).
Please get in touch with a qualified instructor familiar with hot and high procedures on piston engines. Density altitude can bite hard.
If you don't lean the mixture before takeoff according to density altitude you will be way too rich and losing lots of power (of the little you have left at that density altitude).
Please get in touch with a qualified instructor familiar with hot and high procedures on piston engines. Density altitude can bite hard.
Moderator
Jerry,
You've got a good plane which will treat you well if flown well. Take the advice of Speedbird and others about training with an instructor. With many thousands of hours on over 75 types of aircraft, I still ask for a checkout when flying a new type.
Cherokees are among the minority of light aircraft with an all flying stabilator. For the role for which this aircraft was intended, the stabilator works well. However, in takeoffs where early rotation is desired, they are less good than stabilizer/elevator combinations. The reasons for this are a little involved to explain, but suffice it to say that the whole stabilator can be stalled up side down during takeoff, and create a much longer and unsafe takeoff. Early Cessna Cardinals also suffered from this, and were AD'd for an areodynamic change to improve it. It sounds like you might have already experienced this unknowingly.
Avoid early rotation until a very qualified Cherokee pilot has given you thorough training. In my early days, I was right seat to an "experienced" Cherokee pilot in an Arrow (retractable 180 HP Cherokee) He pulled the poor plane off the ground much too early, and we were stuck in ground affect with a fully stalled stabilator, completely unable to climb and no longer over the runway (thank goodness for low fences and flat gorund). It was only my selecting the gear up that got us climbing. The event was very memorable! I later experimented with this characteristic by myself in the Arrow on the miles long surface of a frozen lake, where density altitude was very favourable. The affect was easy to reproduce, and difficult to fix without re-landing.
Bottom line, competent instruction. Your nerves will thank your ego!
Cheers, Pilot DAR
You've got a good plane which will treat you well if flown well. Take the advice of Speedbird and others about training with an instructor. With many thousands of hours on over 75 types of aircraft, I still ask for a checkout when flying a new type.
Cherokees are among the minority of light aircraft with an all flying stabilator. For the role for which this aircraft was intended, the stabilator works well. However, in takeoffs where early rotation is desired, they are less good than stabilizer/elevator combinations. The reasons for this are a little involved to explain, but suffice it to say that the whole stabilator can be stalled up side down during takeoff, and create a much longer and unsafe takeoff. Early Cessna Cardinals also suffered from this, and were AD'd for an areodynamic change to improve it. It sounds like you might have already experienced this unknowingly.
Avoid early rotation until a very qualified Cherokee pilot has given you thorough training. In my early days, I was right seat to an "experienced" Cherokee pilot in an Arrow (retractable 180 HP Cherokee) He pulled the poor plane off the ground much too early, and we were stuck in ground affect with a fully stalled stabilator, completely unable to climb and no longer over the runway (thank goodness for low fences and flat gorund). It was only my selecting the gear up that got us climbing. The event was very memorable! I later experimented with this characteristic by myself in the Arrow on the miles long surface of a frozen lake, where density altitude was very favourable. The affect was easy to reproduce, and difficult to fix without re-landing.
Bottom line, competent instruction. Your nerves will thank your ego!
Cheers, Pilot DAR
Blah Blah Blah
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clearfinalsno1
Yes I do think it "can be risky". Once you pull those flaps in you must keep an eye on that airspeed. If need be you don't climb until you have enough speed. I have done 400m strips 4 up with bags in a PA28 180. Although I would not recomend it unless you really know the aircraft. You really have to fly by the seat of your pants.
As for my experience. it does make a difference accelrating with no flaps, thats why i do it. Also pulling in 2 stages of flaps it literaly makes the aircraft hop of the floor, at this point you have to ease back on the yoke a little bit as it will hop of the floor and nose over if you are not carefull. Once you break the nose over motion you need to eas forward a bit on the yoke to prevent stalling. After about 50-75 meters you will have built up enough speed to begin a normal climb out and start loosing the flaps.
I have never pulled 3 stages of flap in, the angle of the flap lever seems natural to stop pulling once you reach two stages.
Read up on bush flying techniques and operations. F E Potts has a very good book.
Now my tin hat is on!
Yes I do think it "can be risky". Once you pull those flaps in you must keep an eye on that airspeed. If need be you don't climb until you have enough speed. I have done 400m strips 4 up with bags in a PA28 180. Although I would not recomend it unless you really know the aircraft. You really have to fly by the seat of your pants.
As for my experience. it does make a difference accelrating with no flaps, thats why i do it. Also pulling in 2 stages of flaps it literaly makes the aircraft hop of the floor, at this point you have to ease back on the yoke a little bit as it will hop of the floor and nose over if you are not carefull. Once you break the nose over motion you need to eas forward a bit on the yoke to prevent stalling. After about 50-75 meters you will have built up enough speed to begin a normal climb out and start loosing the flaps.
I have never pulled 3 stages of flap in, the angle of the flap lever seems natural to stop pulling once you reach two stages.
Read up on bush flying techniques and operations. F E Potts has a very good book.
Now my tin hat is on!
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GColyer
I don't think I will be teaching my students your techniques.
The POH or Flight Manual should be regarded as the plane bible and IMHO should not be operated outside, unless you are looking for trouble.
Winging it and hoping for the best are simply dangerous and unprofessional.
TJ
I don't think I will be teaching my students your techniques.
The POH or Flight Manual should be regarded as the plane bible and IMHO should not be operated outside, unless you are looking for trouble.
Winging it and hoping for the best are simply dangerous and unprofessional.
TJ
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TurboJ
I totaly agree with you. You should not be teaching PPL students this. Go and spend sometime with bush pilots, and I mean real bush pilots that have worked the south american jungles/mountains or Alaska. You will soon learn you and what the aircraft can and can't do.
Not once did I say I wing it, and I have not met a bush pilot that wings it either. I do not proclaim to be a bush pilot but I do know 2 very good bush pilots that have taught me a few things.
As for getting a PA28 in and out of tight places, like I said you really need to know the aircraft, A PA28 180 I know well enough to get into and out of some very tight strips on maximum weight. And I was taught this by the 2 bush pilots that I know.
I totaly agree with you. You should not be teaching PPL students this. Go and spend sometime with bush pilots, and I mean real bush pilots that have worked the south american jungles/mountains or Alaska. You will soon learn you and what the aircraft can and can't do.
Not once did I say I wing it, and I have not met a bush pilot that wings it either. I do not proclaim to be a bush pilot but I do know 2 very good bush pilots that have taught me a few things.
As for getting a PA28 in and out of tight places, like I said you really need to know the aircraft, A PA28 180 I know well enough to get into and out of some very tight strips on maximum weight. And I was taught this by the 2 bush pilots that I know.
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Got a quite a few hours in 180's, i always go comfort so i begin to bring the nose back at 60 and im off the ground at 65. Sorry if its been answerd to death but thought i would put my 2 cents in
Blah Blah Blah
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I start to ease back on the yoke fractionaly after pulling the 2 stages of flap in, and I only pull it enough to break the nose down motion. During the take of run down the runway I hold the yoke as neutral as possible.
Holding the yoke back on a rough bumpy strip is not a great idea, once the speed starts building she will start bouncing about like a looney. For the average grass strip you wont notice it to much.
Holding the yoke back on a rough bumpy strip is not a great idea, once the speed starts building she will start bouncing about like a looney. For the average grass strip you wont notice it to much.
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There are lots of posts on here from lots of very well meaning folk.
The best advice, is to seek advice from an instructor.
If the poster lives in Arizona - he is lucky enough to live near one of the nicest, friendliest, flight schools in that part of America.
Go to www.shebleaviation.com based in Kingman AZ, get their number - ring up and speak to Eddie Lane!
Julian
The best advice, is to seek advice from an instructor.
If the poster lives in Arizona - he is lucky enough to live near one of the nicest, friendliest, flight schools in that part of America.
Go to www.shebleaviation.com based in Kingman AZ, get their number - ring up and speak to Eddie Lane!
Julian
