GA in Switzerland
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GA in Switzerland
Hi
I am hoping to fly UK to Switzerland this Sat/Sun in a C-172 VFR (weather permitting!)
We were wondering about the best way in - north Troyes to Lausanne. Or south to Annecy (which we know well) and then South of the lake.
Does anyone have any views on this? or on how GA friendly Geneva is, as far as crossing their TMA is concerned.
If the weather is good then we see no problems as we can fly over all the mountains, on whichever side we go. BUT if cloud base is a bit low then the mountains each side look fairly serious for vfr flying!
Thanks for any help
June
I am hoping to fly UK to Switzerland this Sat/Sun in a C-172 VFR (weather permitting!)
We were wondering about the best way in - north Troyes to Lausanne. Or south to Annecy (which we know well) and then South of the lake.
Does anyone have any views on this? or on how GA friendly Geneva is, as far as crossing their TMA is concerned.
If the weather is good then we see no problems as we can fly over all the mountains, on whichever side we go. BUT if cloud base is a bit low then the mountains each side look fairly serious for vfr flying!
Thanks for any help
June
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Switzerland is very organised for VFR GA. Every airfield has pilot services mostly with live satellite weather displays - impressive stuff. The two places I have visited (Grenchen and Wangen-Lachen) even have a man dropping in who refills the paper in the laser printer.
They have serious terrain, as you have discovered, and because most spamcans can't do much altitude, and because most pilots don't have an IR, a lot of "canyon flying" goes on as a result, in the canyons but below the cloudbase. I suspect their PPL training is way better than the stuff that goes on in the UK.
Watch out the Swiss ICAIO chart: last time I used it (2004) it had a mixture of feet and metres in elevations - deadly!
A lot of their runways are at significant elevations so you need to know your performance calcs.
They have serious terrain, as you have discovered, and because most spamcans can't do much altitude, and because most pilots don't have an IR, a lot of "canyon flying" goes on as a result, in the canyons but below the cloudbase. I suspect their PPL training is way better than the stuff that goes on in the UK.
Watch out the Swiss ICAIO chart: last time I used it (2004) it had a mixture of feet and metres in elevations - deadly!
A lot of their runways are at significant elevations so you need to know your performance calcs.
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how GA friendly Geneva is, as far as crossing their TMA is concerned.
I'd always plan a route that didn't rely on getting a transit through the Geneva TMA. If you get a transit you'll be happy, and if you don't you won't find yourself hurriedly re-planning as you fly over the mountains.
On a much happier note, they have been known to approve low-level transits over the airport and the town centre at quiet times. This gives some fabulous views.
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Very true; Zurich refused me transit through the Class C above the Alps; the base of this was FL130 and the terrain was up to FL115.
This was completely stupid since there could not have been any traffic until at least a few thousand feet above. The airway MEAs (where I fly nowadays, with an IR) are FL140/FL160 or so there.
However, the degree to which one can bank on getting a CAS transit anywhere is variable. One can't really fly VFR and bet the whole shop on a transit. ATC are entitled to just tell you to p*** off, and often do.
This was completely stupid since there could not have been any traffic until at least a few thousand feet above. The airway MEAs (where I fly nowadays, with an IR) are FL140/FL160 or so there.
However, the degree to which one can bank on getting a CAS transit anywhere is variable. One can't really fly VFR and bet the whole shop on a transit. ATC are entitled to just tell you to p*** off, and often do.
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Thanks for the info - especially the one about the mixture of ft and m. It may be why we had some difficulty in working out what Geneva CTAs were all about. They appear to clear you as long as you are underground in one area!!
Does anyone have any info about clearing customs when flying from France - we are wondering if its customs free, like from France to Germany (can't remember the name of the agreement that F&G have)
June
Does anyone have any info about clearing customs when flying from France - we are wondering if its customs free, like from France to Germany (can't remember the name of the agreement that F&G have)
June
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AFAIK Switzerland is not in Schengen so you need to enter via an international airport. I chose Grenchen last time.
Most countries apart from the UK also have exit customs. Switzerland has a number of airfields where you cannot enter the country but you can leave via them, and the facility is on a few hours' notice. I doubt anybody ever turns up to check you out; you just fax a certain number in advance to say you will be leaving via there.
My limited experience of Switzerland is that they like their special weather briefing machines, through which you can also get notams. I could not work out how to use these things, and reverted to using a laptop with GPRS to get weather etc.
Most countries apart from the UK also have exit customs. Switzerland has a number of airfields where you cannot enter the country but you can leave via them, and the facility is on a few hours' notice. I doubt anybody ever turns up to check you out; you just fax a certain number in advance to say you will be leaving via there.
My limited experience of Switzerland is that they like their special weather briefing machines, through which you can also get notams. I could not work out how to use these things, and reverted to using a laptop with GPRS to get weather etc.
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Dont worry, the current Swiss chart is all in Ft.
The weather is supposed to be wonderful here this weekend with temps upto 30C. So if you are planning to stop off at some mountain airports just be careful. I was in LSZS abt 3months ago. The airport elevation is approx 5600ft but at 2pm the density alt was over 7200ft. It can catch a few people out.
As previously mentioned, all of the local airports have a "home" briefing computerized system which makes life very easy for upto date weather / planning etc etc
Just treat those big lumps of rock sticking out of the earth with great respect, they have a very nasty bite. Even on a sunny day the winds in the valleys can make life interesting. But dont let that put you off. A lot of the flying is done in the valleys below the peaks which makes for breath taking views.
Have fun.
The weather is supposed to be wonderful here this weekend with temps upto 30C. So if you are planning to stop off at some mountain airports just be careful. I was in LSZS abt 3months ago. The airport elevation is approx 5600ft but at 2pm the density alt was over 7200ft. It can catch a few people out.
As previously mentioned, all of the local airports have a "home" briefing computerized system which makes life very easy for upto date weather / planning etc etc
Just treat those big lumps of rock sticking out of the earth with great respect, they have a very nasty bite. Even on a sunny day the winds in the valleys can make life interesting. But dont let that put you off. A lot of the flying is done in the valleys below the peaks which makes for breath taking views.
Have fun.
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AFAIK Switzerland is not in Schengen so you need to enter via an international airport. I chose Grenchen last time.
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After a referendum the Swiss have ratified the Schengen Treaty but not implemented it. They talk about earliest Autumn 2008; until then existing customs and immigration procedures remain in force...
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I've flown into Lausanne direct from Troyes and departed Annemasse - Annecy enroute to Cannes. The direct route is significantly shorter (c60nm), the mountains are no higher than via Annecy and you are (or at least can chose to be) over the high ground for a shorter period, so local weather permitting I'd take the direct route if you've got any time pressures.
As you probably know, the Annemasse - Annecy route is stunning so if you've got the time you should try it either inbound or outbound. The earlier comments about Geneva's Class C are spot on so you need to factor into your contingencies that you are very unlikely to get a vfr transit clearance.
The approach to Lausanne's northerly runway is wonderful too - over the lake and then relatively low level over the city to the airfield which is a few hundred feet above lake level. Its a small and friendly field.
W
As you probably know, the Annemasse - Annecy route is stunning so if you've got the time you should try it either inbound or outbound. The earlier comments about Geneva's Class C are spot on so you need to factor into your contingencies that you are very unlikely to get a vfr transit clearance.
The approach to Lausanne's northerly runway is wonderful too - over the lake and then relatively low level over the city to the airfield which is a few hundred feet above lake level. Its a small and friendly field.
W
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Timely Advice
Thanks for that Walkabout - couldn't be more timely. We arrived in Troyes last night and have logged on prior to completing our planning for the leg to Lausanne!
We will go the direct route and then either return via Annecy or make it a day trip. I can imagine the views are amazing.
June
We will go the direct route and then either return via Annecy or make it a day trip. I can imagine the views are amazing.
June
