Appauling Farnborough RTF
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Appauling Farnborough RTF
I've jost got back from a quick bimble down to the IOW. I always use Farnborough radar because of their good service, it helps me and I believe it helps them with their 'corporate' clients whizzing about in their BBJs etc.
However, I was really appauled at my fellow pilots RT performance this afternoon. I know that when its busy on frequency, two or more of us can start to transmit at once in order to get a call in, I don't know how that can be avoided.
What is avoidable is people coming on frequency and just transmitting without listening out first. This happened all too frequently today when the radar controller was already halfway through a sentance.
Please, please, please listen out first. I know I'm not perfect, but one thing I do is once I change to Farnborough for example is listen out. Whilst I'm doing that I'm dialling in the next frequency I think I'm going to need. By the time that's done I have a clue as to what's going on.
Secondly, there are times when its quiet and there are times when its busy. For those of you that think we want to hear your life story, punctuated with more 'ums' and 'ers' than useful info, think again. When its busy, THINK about what is ESSENTIAL and say it in a business like manner. I'm sure the controllers are not offended by brevity when they are busy.
I know that with the recent bad weather soem people may not have been flying for a few weeks but I can't believe that you had forgotten ALL of CAP413.
I'm sure somedays, these professional controllers wonder why they bother come to work to help us when we can't even help ourselves.
RANT OVER
However, I was really appauled at my fellow pilots RT performance this afternoon. I know that when its busy on frequency, two or more of us can start to transmit at once in order to get a call in, I don't know how that can be avoided.
What is avoidable is people coming on frequency and just transmitting without listening out first. This happened all too frequently today when the radar controller was already halfway through a sentance.
Please, please, please listen out first. I know I'm not perfect, but one thing I do is once I change to Farnborough for example is listen out. Whilst I'm doing that I'm dialling in the next frequency I think I'm going to need. By the time that's done I have a clue as to what's going on.
Secondly, there are times when its quiet and there are times when its busy. For those of you that think we want to hear your life story, punctuated with more 'ums' and 'ers' than useful info, think again. When its busy, THINK about what is ESSENTIAL and say it in a business like manner. I'm sure the controllers are not offended by brevity when they are busy.
I know that with the recent bad weather soem people may not have been flying for a few weeks but I can't believe that you had forgotten ALL of CAP413.
I'm sure somedays, these professional controllers wonder why they bother come to work to help us when we can't even help ourselves.
RANT OVER
It's not just the RTF at Farnborough - I was operating near there a few years ago, and - perfectly legally - a yellow Cub flew west to east straight through the ILS. Without talking to Farnborough.
Perfectly legal but demonstrated an appalling* lack of airmanship.
* Duncan - best to correct other people's spelling properly !
Perfectly legal but demonstrated an appalling* lack of airmanship.
* Duncan - best to correct other people's spelling properly !
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Spelling
Sorry, in an attempt not to have the thread hijacked because can't spell, I did check it using MSWord, but now I realise that I didn't press the space bar, so didn't get the red wiggly line.
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Three Yellows,
I guess we all have the occasional sub-standard RT moment. You should have heard me during my IR reval last week, it is amazing what happens as the capacity drains away. If people haven't been flying for a while then, as you say, perhaps a reason. Personally, I think the standard of RT is generally excellent with the competent use of of the airwaves far out numbering the not so. If I were to pick one serious failing that seems to defeat too many pilots it is what to do when told to standby. I have on occasion heard Farnborough having to get quite blunt (an understatement) with pilots on a number of occasions.
DuncanF,
Oh for heavens sakes. I would estimate 20% of pprune is made up of spelling/grammar related diatribes 
Enough already 
I guess we all have the occasional sub-standard RT moment. You should have heard me during my IR reval last week, it is amazing what happens as the capacity drains away. If people haven't been flying for a while then, as you say, perhaps a reason. Personally, I think the standard of RT is generally excellent with the competent use of of the airwaves far out numbering the not so. If I were to pick one serious failing that seems to defeat too many pilots it is what to do when told to standby. I have on occasion heard Farnborough having to get quite blunt (an understatement) with pilots on a number of occasions.
DuncanF,
And some of your fellow pilots are probably appalled at your spelling ... 
Enough already
Yes it was busy and there did seem to be more people than normal 'stepping on' each other. Apart from being the first good flying day for a few weeks,(you should have seen the masses round Popham and Lasham) there was also the TopNav competition out of White Waltham to contend with, and bear in mind all this traffic was in the present LARS area; when it's extended with a new frequency it won't get any less busy!
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Would it not be possible that *some* of these horrific stepper-on'rs might not have been recieving any transmissions where they were? Perhaps from their radio end there was a gap on transmission??
Just a thought.
VFE.
Just a thought.
VFE.
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Talking to the LARS at Farnbourgh is always hard coming out of WW and heading west I often give up and just squawk 7000 charlie and keep a listening watch, after all if youre heading due west and North of the M4 youre out of there direct area but always listen to them.
What did concern me yesterday (and it's happening again today) was the number of people who called just after someone had been given information requiring a readback thus denying them the chance to complete the readback.
On my return to EGLK at approx 1300 today, having used FIS - unable to speak to Farnboro' continous flow of RT, so did an orbit, was then able to call and change to EGLK, was this correct? 
- Always impressed by their service.
- Always impressed by their service.
I had a little trip in Saturday morning from Fairoaks to Sevenoaks and via Seaford and Midhurst back to Fairoaks again. wasn't it fabulous after the last few weeks ???
If you thought Farnborough was bad (which it wasn't when I was with them) you should have heard London Information. I was going deaf listening to it.
Especially the guy from Holland who would not be told by London Info that she was not radar equipped ..... but I need you to identify me on ze radar .... But I am NOT RADAR EQUIPPED.
Is it always like that ? ... I gave up and went and chatted to Shoreham.
DGG
If you thought Farnborough was bad (which it wasn't when I was with them) you should have heard London Information. I was going deaf listening to it.
Especially the guy from Holland who would not be told by London Info that she was not radar equipped ..... but I need you to identify me on ze radar .... But I am NOT RADAR EQUIPPED.
Is it always like that ? ... I gave up and went and chatted to Shoreham.
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Wasn't me. Although I am from Holland and was flying back from Duxford yesterday. I do apologise for the behaviour of my fellow countryperson though.
I flew to Duxford Saturday when another classic happened:
London info: OO-XXX, you have a Flight Information Service, squawk 1177, London QHN 1013.
OO-XXX: Squawk, er, 7700, OO-XXX
London: OO-XXX, negative sir, squawk one-one-seven-seven
OO-XXX: Er, 7700, er, OO-XXX
This went on for a while. I hope he did not actually select 7700 during that conversation.
I flew to Duxford Saturday when another classic happened:
London info: OO-XXX, you have a Flight Information Service, squawk 1177, London QHN 1013.
OO-XXX: Squawk, er, 7700, OO-XXX
London: OO-XXX, negative sir, squawk one-one-seven-seven
OO-XXX: Er, 7700, er, OO-XXX
This went on for a while. I hope he did not actually select 7700 during that conversation.
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Some great RT
I loved listening to an interchange from the pilot of a helicopter who sounded incredibly posh and Farnborough RT
xxx: helicopter just departed from xyz hall (man that's posh, my house only has a number)
Farn: squawk yyy blah blah blah active gliding in progress
xxx: squawk yyy and got 'em peeled for the gliders
The helicopter pilot sounded totally cool, dead posh and just sounded like a right laugh to have a pint with.
xxx: helicopter just departed from xyz hall (man that's posh, my house only has a number)
Farn: squawk yyy blah blah blah active gliding in progress
xxx: squawk yyy and got 'em peeled for the gliders
The helicopter pilot sounded totally cool, dead posh and just sounded like a right laugh to have a pint with.
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Not CAP413 by any means, but I always loved listening in to Daytona whilst flying around near Ormond FL - loads of active parachuting going on - the standard reply was "Roger that Daytona - I'll be lookin' out for them meat missiles!" 
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I'm starting to dislike this whole Flight Information Service thing more and more. Not the way the controllers handle it, but the way people make use of it.
Last Saturday I was flying from Rotterdam to Duxford, talking to London Information all the way from the FIR boundary. The air was thick with people requesting a Flight Information Service - at some point London had five on standby waiting to pass their message. All good and well, but in the 60 minutes that I was on frequency, NOBODY actually asked for actual information related to the flight. No requests for amendments on flightplans, no requests for weather updates, ETA revisions, nothing. Only the London QNH that got passed on the initial call could be classified as "information". But it did take me five minutes before I could report coasting in over Dover, and about the same time before I could sign off with London, due to all the people passing their message.
Now I know that a FIS implies an alerting service as well, and I really do appreciate that part of the service while flying cross-channel. But I wonder how many aircraft silently switched frequency (because they could not get a word in edgewise), rendering the alerting service part of the FIS a bit moot. And due to the airwave traffic I was five minutes late in reporting "coasting in over Dover", but London did not query me about that. I also know about squawk 1177 and agree that that's very useful too. But I still think asking for a FIS, then not asking for any information and not using the alerting service bit of the FIS (by passing, revising and reporting ETAs, and London keeping a close watch on this) is a bit of a waste of everybodies energy, and valuable airwave time.
Mind you, I think London Info, if used properly, can be a real valuable resource. On the way back I used them to the fullest extent, having them open my flightplan and keeping me updated on the Dover and Ostende weather, which wasn't looking too promising before we started out (but eventually we made the crossing in near-perfect weather).
What do the London Info controllers think about this? Should we call them, pass our message, squawk 1177 and then sign off without asking for any information like we do now, even when the frequency is really busy, or should we just silently listen in on the frequency if we've got nothing to ask, while squawking 7000, particularly if it's busy with people who need the alerting service most of all (ie. cross-channel traffic). Or is there some sort of middle ground?
As an aside, has anybody ever asked an "alerting service" instead of a FIS?
Last Saturday I was flying from Rotterdam to Duxford, talking to London Information all the way from the FIR boundary. The air was thick with people requesting a Flight Information Service - at some point London had five on standby waiting to pass their message. All good and well, but in the 60 minutes that I was on frequency, NOBODY actually asked for actual information related to the flight. No requests for amendments on flightplans, no requests for weather updates, ETA revisions, nothing. Only the London QNH that got passed on the initial call could be classified as "information". But it did take me five minutes before I could report coasting in over Dover, and about the same time before I could sign off with London, due to all the people passing their message.
Now I know that a FIS implies an alerting service as well, and I really do appreciate that part of the service while flying cross-channel. But I wonder how many aircraft silently switched frequency (because they could not get a word in edgewise), rendering the alerting service part of the FIS a bit moot. And due to the airwave traffic I was five minutes late in reporting "coasting in over Dover", but London did not query me about that. I also know about squawk 1177 and agree that that's very useful too. But I still think asking for a FIS, then not asking for any information and not using the alerting service bit of the FIS (by passing, revising and reporting ETAs, and London keeping a close watch on this) is a bit of a waste of everybodies energy, and valuable airwave time.
Mind you, I think London Info, if used properly, can be a real valuable resource. On the way back I used them to the fullest extent, having them open my flightplan and keeping me updated on the Dover and Ostende weather, which wasn't looking too promising before we started out (but eventually we made the crossing in near-perfect weather).
What do the London Info controllers think about this? Should we call them, pass our message, squawk 1177 and then sign off without asking for any information like we do now, even when the frequency is really busy, or should we just silently listen in on the frequency if we've got nothing to ask, while squawking 7000, particularly if it's busy with people who need the alerting service most of all (ie. cross-channel traffic). Or is there some sort of middle ground?
As an aside, has anybody ever asked an "alerting service" instead of a FIS?