Question about forced landing in NE USA
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Question about forced landing in NE USA
G'Day folks,
So, I'm transplanted from the UK and I've finally been signed off to fly over here in upstate NY and I've a little nagging issue. During my training many moons ago in the UK, the instructors seemed to drill into me almost a paranoia about locating a suitable field for a forced landing in the event of the donkey quitting. In sunny east Kent there is nothing but lovely big farmers fields, but over here there is nothing but trees, even the cities are full of trees!
My question/concern is where the hell would you land in the "unlikely event"? When I asked the instructor on my BFR he replied "on a road, I guess". I'm wondering what is the least terrible option? Landing in a lake, stalling onto the tree canopy (but this ain't a rainforest!) or trying to find a road?
Thoughts?
Cheers,
Gareth.
So, I'm transplanted from the UK and I've finally been signed off to fly over here in upstate NY and I've a little nagging issue. During my training many moons ago in the UK, the instructors seemed to drill into me almost a paranoia about locating a suitable field for a forced landing in the event of the donkey quitting. In sunny east Kent there is nothing but lovely big farmers fields, but over here there is nothing but trees, even the cities are full of trees!
My question/concern is where the hell would you land in the "unlikely event"? When I asked the instructor on my BFR he replied "on a road, I guess". I'm wondering what is the least terrible option? Landing in a lake, stalling onto the tree canopy (but this ain't a rainforest!) or trying to find a road?
Thoughts?
Cheers,
Gareth.
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Why not go with the instructor? When over inhospitable territory I'd always know where the roads are, and be in a position if possible to reach a road if the engine quit. A little detour is no big deal. Roads in the States have elevated cables running alongside them more often than in the UK so watch for them. It would be foolish to reach a road then hit a wire because you approached from the wrong side. Remember you can generally cruise at a much higher altitude in the States than in sunny East Kent, so use that to your advantage. If it's not nice terrain you should be even more diligent in knowing at all times where you will head if the engine dies.
If no road available, the NTSB suggests water rather than trees. But you need to do it right. If only trees, try and minimise the height where you contact the trees, preferably low down and let the wings rip off. You can survive the g better going in horizontally rather than dropping vertically. Stalling in just above the tree tops means you will drop like a stone vertically.
Some of the nastiest terrain looks fine from a thousand feet, but if you look from close up its full of man sized boulders that are camouflaged. Would ruin your day. Keep your eye on the weather and don't run out of fuel and you minimise a lot of major risks.
If no road available, the NTSB suggests water rather than trees. But you need to do it right. If only trees, try and minimise the height where you contact the trees, preferably low down and let the wings rip off. You can survive the g better going in horizontally rather than dropping vertically. Stalling in just above the tree tops means you will drop like a stone vertically.
Some of the nastiest terrain looks fine from a thousand feet, but if you look from close up its full of man sized boulders that are camouflaged. Would ruin your day. Keep your eye on the weather and don't run out of fuel and you minimise a lot of major risks.
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When stooging about over the Arizona desert for hours at a stretch this thought often crossed my mind.
As s-slag says use altitude to your advantage and it's amazing how many little airstrips appear out of nowhere.
Failing that in the desert it's tracks which are the only things with a chance of being boulder free.(unless you count the Colorado river.). But watch the wires:
Remember: take plenty of water with you......................
Safe flying
Cusco.
As s-slag says use altitude to your advantage and it's amazing how many little airstrips appear out of nowhere.
Failing that in the desert it's tracks which are the only things with a chance of being boulder free.(unless you count the Colorado river.). But watch the wires:
Remember: take plenty of water with you......................
Safe flying
Cusco.
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Well I fly in Canada, similar issues most of the time except in the St. Lawrence Valley where I normally fly, which of course had many lovely farms.
I digress. I would avoid water. My instructor, when I did my PPL about 27 years ago, asked me what I would do if I had the choice between trees and water. I chose trees. He asked why. I said "because I can't swim worth a sh!t!". He said good answer. Hitting water is like hitting concrete. In a fixed gear single, you are almost guaranteed to flip it. Unless you have practiced water egress while upside down, and have appropriate gear (life vests) or are an excellent swimmer, I would tend to avoid water, and any bump on the head will mean not getting out. Roads are good but as noted there are power and phone cables running alongside the road, but also crossing the road in many places, and these may be hard to spot until too late. If you must, don't try to look for the wires, they are almost impossible to see. Instead, look for the poles. If you see two poles on opposite sides of the road, more or less lined up with each other, there is likely a cable across your path.
You'd be surprised what you can pull off though. Recently a guy in a 172 was sightseeing over downtown Montreal. The squirrel in the cage that turned the windmill stopped running for some reason, and the guy had to force land over downtown. He managed to land on a fairly wide, but very busy boulevard in the heart of the city, with only a minor prang of a wingtip on a street sign. They had to dismantle the plane to get it out. Very lucky. If I were him, I would have run straight out to buy a lotto ticket.
Getting back to water, some guy in a Cherokee had to force land in Lake Superior last week (stupid: fuel starvation over open water). He got out but his wife drowned. I am pretty firm, I would never chose water except maybe 6 inches from shore.
I digress. I would avoid water. My instructor, when I did my PPL about 27 years ago, asked me what I would do if I had the choice between trees and water. I chose trees. He asked why. I said "because I can't swim worth a sh!t!". He said good answer. Hitting water is like hitting concrete. In a fixed gear single, you are almost guaranteed to flip it. Unless you have practiced water egress while upside down, and have appropriate gear (life vests) or are an excellent swimmer, I would tend to avoid water, and any bump on the head will mean not getting out. Roads are good but as noted there are power and phone cables running alongside the road, but also crossing the road in many places, and these may be hard to spot until too late. If you must, don't try to look for the wires, they are almost impossible to see. Instead, look for the poles. If you see two poles on opposite sides of the road, more or less lined up with each other, there is likely a cable across your path.
You'd be surprised what you can pull off though. Recently a guy in a 172 was sightseeing over downtown Montreal. The squirrel in the cage that turned the windmill stopped running for some reason, and the guy had to force land over downtown. He managed to land on a fairly wide, but very busy boulevard in the heart of the city, with only a minor prang of a wingtip on a street sign. They had to dismantle the plane to get it out. Very lucky. If I were him, I would have run straight out to buy a lotto ticket.
Getting back to water, some guy in a Cherokee had to force land in Lake Superior last week (stupid: fuel starvation over open water). He got out but his wife drowned. I am pretty firm, I would never chose water except maybe 6 inches from shore.
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Forced landings
Two previous accidents, both oddly enough with twin engined aeroplanes...
1. Cessna 402 (the model with tip tanks)
Fuel exhaustion close to KVNY years ago, landed on a street, exactly between two unoccupied school busses, shed both tip tanks (as it was built and designed to do) and rolled to a stop.
No injuries.
2. Tradewind modified twin Beech (PT-6 engines) suffered a dual engine failure (actual failure, plenty of fuel onboard) on approach to a busy east coast airport, and the aeroplane was 'landed' in a very big tree (and stayed there, until removed by crane)...severe aircraft damage, no injuries.
Both, very lucky folks.
When the engine(s) fail, sometimes you can be fortunate...sometimes not.
Luck of the draw, with a little skill many times the deciding factor.
1. Cessna 402 (the model with tip tanks)
Fuel exhaustion close to KVNY years ago, landed on a street, exactly between two unoccupied school busses, shed both tip tanks (as it was built and designed to do) and rolled to a stop.
No injuries.
2. Tradewind modified twin Beech (PT-6 engines) suffered a dual engine failure (actual failure, plenty of fuel onboard) on approach to a busy east coast airport, and the aeroplane was 'landed' in a very big tree (and stayed there, until removed by crane)...severe aircraft damage, no injuries.
Both, very lucky folks.
When the engine(s) fail, sometimes you can be fortunate...sometimes not.
Luck of the draw, with a little skill many times the deciding factor.
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Like this?
I've been searching for some nice flying in upstate NY myself and came across this.
An early 1960s view of a Taylorcraft which ended up in a tree at the end of one of the runways at Brizee (courtesy of Bob Bailey).
“It occurred as a result of a late go around after a bounced landing. There were no injuries.”
I'm renting from Rochester International this Sunday 24th - if you have any recommendations for great destinations within an hour please PM me.
An early 1960s view of a Taylorcraft which ended up in a tree at the end of one of the runways at Brizee (courtesy of Bob Bailey).
“It occurred as a result of a late go around after a bounced landing. There were no injuries.”
I'm renting from Rochester International this Sunday 24th - if you have any recommendations for great destinations within an hour please PM me.
Last edited by StillStanding; 22nd Jun 2007 at 08:00.
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My instructor, when I did my PPL about 27 years ago, asked me what I would do if I had the choice between trees and water.
Blah Blah Blah
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For upsate NY i suggest flying to my mates airport. It is called Duflo's or NY10
It is in Lewis County in a town called New Bremen. He has AVGAS on tap, he is an instructor and certified engineer. On top of that he is a crop duster/sprayer and entomologist.
The runways are asphalt. If you want PPR call on 315 376 2155 and ask for Jeff or Renee.
Yes there are plenty of trees upstate, there are also plenty of fields. Last BFR I done during the PFL I was where was I going to dump her. I said the huge great intersate below us. Instructor said fine and go for it (obviously dont actualy land)
It is in Lewis County in a town called New Bremen. He has AVGAS on tap, he is an instructor and certified engineer. On top of that he is a crop duster/sprayer and entomologist.
The runways are asphalt. If you want PPR call on 315 376 2155 and ask for Jeff or Renee.
Yes there are plenty of trees upstate, there are also plenty of fields. Last BFR I done during the PFL I was where was I going to dump her. I said the huge great intersate below us. Instructor said fine and go for it (obviously dont actualy land)
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NTSB Document NTSB-AAS-72-3, dated 1972 but don't see why things will have changed.
Emergency Landing Techniques in Small Fixed Wing Aircraft
PDF http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aas/AAS72-03.pdf
On page 7 (page 12 of 14 in the PDF) you will find
Plenty of other good information in there.
Obviously you wouldn't aim for the middle of a lake where you might drown, you would ditch close to the shore. Also, quite a few lakes have beaches alongside, and quite a few reservoirs are not full and have shorelines which are clear of vegetation. As always, it depends, but if over nasty terrain with nothing like a road around I'd head towards a lake.
Emergency Landing Techniques in Small Fixed Wing Aircraft
PDF http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aas/AAS72-03.pdf
On page 7 (page 12 of 14 in the PDF) you will find
A well-executed water landing probably involves less deceleration violence that a poor tree landing or a touchdown on extremely rough terrain
Obviously you wouldn't aim for the middle of a lake where you might drown, you would ditch close to the shore. Also, quite a few lakes have beaches alongside, and quite a few reservoirs are not full and have shorelines which are clear of vegetation. As always, it depends, but if over nasty terrain with nothing like a road around I'd head towards a lake.
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If you're looking at trees be selective. Conifers have pretty soft top ends and can give a fairly gentle deceleration, the only problem is that leaves you a long way from the ground and getting down is likely to be a bit fraught. However flying into a big oak or maple is going to give a chance of hitting a large branch and spoiling your day.
Water - well if you have any real crash training (like offshore helicopter survival training) perhaps, but as mentioned earlier unless the exits are very direct and all the occupants have a real escape plan then probably not everyone will get out...
I do a reasonable amount of flying over the Scottish highlands which are nothing if not boulder strewn and riven by deep runoff cuts, my cunning plan is to land on the steepest upslope I can find. The forward (and downward motions) are at their lowest and contacting the ground at less than 40 knots (hopefully less than 30!) should make it all survivable. Luckily we have a couple of strips with pretty agressive slopes which helps in practicing the 'flying uphill and landing' technique.
Water - well if you have any real crash training (like offshore helicopter survival training) perhaps, but as mentioned earlier unless the exits are very direct and all the occupants have a real escape plan then probably not everyone will get out...
I do a reasonable amount of flying over the Scottish highlands which are nothing if not boulder strewn and riven by deep runoff cuts, my cunning plan is to land on the steepest upslope I can find. The forward (and downward motions) are at their lowest and contacting the ground at less than 40 knots (hopefully less than 30!) should make it all survivable. Luckily we have a couple of strips with pretty agressive slopes which helps in practicing the 'flying uphill and landing' technique.
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Plenty of articles on the web looking at actual NTSB statistics. Turns out that people manage to get out over 9 times in 10, and just under 1 in 10 ditchings result in people dying.
