Avionics engineers?
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: london
Avionics engineers?
I wondered if anyone had any suggestions as to friendly avionics engineers?
The outfit I have used to date were asked to quote to wire in an external aeriel and a powerfeed to the circuit-breakers in my new archer, for my 296 (which I already own), and have come up with £1,411 plus VAT.
This is hot on the heals of having charged £2,200 plus VAT to fit the s/h kx155 (that I supplied) and £4,500 to replace my ADF with a s/h item.
More fool me for meekly paying, but as a comparitive novice, I can only say that I didn't know any better - rather like the tourist who notices that his taxi has passed the same statue on Regents Park two or three times on it's way to Heathrow.
I won't name names, but Chambers Concise dictionary defines the name of the outfit to mean "sediment or dregs"....
Any suggestion for someone close to west London who is interested in avionics rather than Larceny?
The outfit I have used to date were asked to quote to wire in an external aeriel and a powerfeed to the circuit-breakers in my new archer, for my 296 (which I already own), and have come up with £1,411 plus VAT.
This is hot on the heals of having charged £2,200 plus VAT to fit the s/h kx155 (that I supplied) and £4,500 to replace my ADF with a s/h item.
More fool me for meekly paying, but as a comparitive novice, I can only say that I didn't know any better - rather like the tourist who notices that his taxi has passed the same statue on Regents Park two or three times on it's way to Heathrow.
I won't name names, but Chambers Concise dictionary defines the name of the outfit to mean "sediment or dregs"....
Any suggestion for someone close to west London who is interested in avionics rather than Larceny?
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 6,209
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From: north of barlu
You only get what you pay for!
I can understand your concern over the price but the problem is that to put this equipment in your aircraft involves more than just "fitting" the kit.
Each change to your aircraft requires an EASA approved modification this will involve a lot of paperwork.
If this company fitted the kit it would have been done "properly" with all the wiring identified at both ends and all the apropriate interconections made with other equipment all of this is very time consuming.
There will be people telling you that there are "cheaper" options but when I had to oversee a £35,000 avionic re-fit all the reputable companys quoted about the same price and the "best" quote turned out to not include all the interconections that thee reputable companys considered as part of the standard fit. The company that you don't like got the job not just on price but on quality and reputation for product support.
There are others who will promise better service at a lower cost but I think that you need to be mindfull of the old arab proverb that "cheap is not so cheap".
Please note that I have no financal conection with this company.
Each change to your aircraft requires an EASA approved modification this will involve a lot of paperwork.
If this company fitted the kit it would have been done "properly" with all the wiring identified at both ends and all the apropriate interconections made with other equipment all of this is very time consuming.
There will be people telling you that there are "cheaper" options but when I had to oversee a £35,000 avionic re-fit all the reputable companys quoted about the same price and the "best" quote turned out to not include all the interconections that thee reputable companys considered as part of the standard fit. The company that you don't like got the job not just on price but on quality and reputation for product support.
There are others who will promise better service at a lower cost but I think that you need to be mindfull of the old arab proverb that "cheap is not so cheap".
Please note that I have no financal conection with this company.
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
I can see where A and C is coming from but there is a reasonable price and been taken to the cleaners. A lot of avionics companies take people to the cleaners.
I have always had my work done by David Jones at Airpspeed and his price has always been very good and the quality superb. Not only that he does include all the extra detail you mention in the price. I had my 496 connected to a CB and to the Garmin GMA340A for the sum of £250.
I have also had work done by IAE at Cranfield and found the job to be well done and with a bit of haggling well priced. My AP and HSI were done by IAE and they were 2/3 of the price of another equally reputable company.
Proof that you can get quality and a FAIR price.
I have always had my work done by David Jones at Airpspeed and his price has always been very good and the quality superb. Not only that he does include all the extra detail you mention in the price. I had my 496 connected to a CB and to the Garmin GMA340A for the sum of £250.
I have also had work done by IAE at Cranfield and found the job to be well done and with a bit of haggling well priced. My AP and HSI were done by IAE and they were 2/3 of the price of another equally reputable company.
Proof that you can get quality and a FAIR price.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: london
I've no problem with "paying up" for a good job, well done.
I do have a problem when neither of the earlier jobs were done properly (the 1st adf went u/s within a week and the KX155 was unuseable for 2 months because said firm couldn't be bothered to adjust the side-tone correctly).
I have a big problem when I discover that I had been charged double what most other organisations charge for their labour, simply because I was too naiive to check out their quotes. My fault, I realise now but, with this particular outfits reputation, it didn't occur to me that they were simply 'helping themselves'.
I agree with the adage "if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys" but, in this instance, i've paid a premium and got robbers.
I do have a problem when neither of the earlier jobs were done properly (the 1st adf went u/s within a week and the KX155 was unuseable for 2 months because said firm couldn't be bothered to adjust the side-tone correctly).
I have a big problem when I discover that I had been charged double what most other organisations charge for their labour, simply because I was too naiive to check out their quotes. My fault, I realise now but, with this particular outfits reputation, it didn't occur to me that they were simply 'helping themselves'.
I agree with the adage "if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys" but, in this instance, i've paid a premium and got robbers.
Joined: May 2003
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From: Yorkshire
Another vote for David Jones at Airspeed, very knowledgeable guy producing top quality work at (what I believe to be) a fair price.
Also gives you a chance to practice your short-field, grass runway techniques !
FF
Also gives you a chance to practice your short-field, grass runway techniques !
FF
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 6,209
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From: north of barlu
I just had another think about this, side tone adjustment is a box issue and not one of the aircraft instalation. Adjusting the sidetone should take seconds IF the box is OK.
It sounds to me as if you have got a cheap box (from E bay?) and asked these guys to fit it and there is something wrong with the sidetone adjustment inside the box.
Is this more about your buying a duff box and trying to find someone to blame rather than a well founded issue over bad workmanship by the guys who fitted the radio box that you supplied?
It sounds to me as if you have got a cheap box (from E bay?) and asked these guys to fit it and there is something wrong with the sidetone adjustment inside the box.
Is this more about your buying a duff box and trying to find someone to blame rather than a well founded issue over bad workmanship by the guys who fitted the radio box that you supplied?
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: london
The box itself was fine but the sidetone needed adjustment to match the level of the other box - as any box will, whether it is new, second hand or from wherever. The issue was that it took month to get them to do something that, in itself took 30 seconds, but should have been done in the 1st place.
Are you sure that you don't work for the aforementioned outfit? There is some chap always skulking behind a computor in the corner of their office.....?
Are you sure that you don't work for the aforementioned outfit? There is some chap always skulking behind a computor in the corner of their office.....?
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 6,209
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From: north of barlu
As I said I don't have a conection with the company except as a customer.
I have and continue to use a number of avionic companys in the London area including the one that you have had the "problem" with.
They are usualy my first port of call for instalation work, for box fixing I use another company.
I can't coment on the quality of the work on your aircraft as I have not seen it but this company usualy works to a very high standard, unfortunatly unless you lay on your back with your head under the rudder pedals you won't see this, it will usualy give years of trouble free service, something that I can't say of a lot of the avionic instalations that I have seen.
Three out of four of my aircraft have had avionic work from this company and I have had only one small problem (that was fixed very quickly) and I will continue to use them in the knowlage that they will cost a bit more than some but in terms of reliability it will be money well spent.
If you take the time to look at my profile you will see that I spend most of my time "skulking" about in an airliner and would guess that I have seen a few more avionic instalations in the 30 years that I have been in the aircraft engineering business than you have.
I have and continue to use a number of avionic companys in the London area including the one that you have had the "problem" with.
They are usualy my first port of call for instalation work, for box fixing I use another company.
I can't coment on the quality of the work on your aircraft as I have not seen it but this company usualy works to a very high standard, unfortunatly unless you lay on your back with your head under the rudder pedals you won't see this, it will usualy give years of trouble free service, something that I can't say of a lot of the avionic instalations that I have seen.
Three out of four of my aircraft have had avionic work from this company and I have had only one small problem (that was fixed very quickly) and I will continue to use them in the knowlage that they will cost a bit more than some but in terms of reliability it will be money well spent.
If you take the time to look at my profile you will see that I spend most of my time "skulking" about in an airliner and would guess that I have seen a few more avionic instalations in the 30 years that I have been in the aircraft engineering business than you have.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: london
You're quite right, I didn't look at your profile.
If you have a good relationship with the aforementioned outfit and have had good work done for you, albeit at a premium to what others might charge, good for you; I'm most envious.
I haven't had good work done by them and I have had to pay through the nose for it. Both previous jobs involved labour charges that were 100% more than that charged by the competition and the current job is 200% more.
Hence I asked the question on this forum for recommendations other than these guys.
For what it's worth, I think that this outfit is focussing far more on the private jet market, where the margins on £35,000 avionics refits, are probably better than those involved with looking after GA aircraft. So I don't blame them in wanting to concerntrate on this area of the market: However, under the circumstances, it would have been more reasonable to simply tell me that they didn't want the work.
Any OTHER recommendations welcomed.
If you have a good relationship with the aforementioned outfit and have had good work done for you, albeit at a premium to what others might charge, good for you; I'm most envious.
I haven't had good work done by them and I have had to pay through the nose for it. Both previous jobs involved labour charges that were 100% more than that charged by the competition and the current job is 200% more.
Hence I asked the question on this forum for recommendations other than these guys.
For what it's worth, I think that this outfit is focussing far more on the private jet market, where the margins on £35,000 avionics refits, are probably better than those involved with looking after GA aircraft. So I don't blame them in wanting to concerntrate on this area of the market: However, under the circumstances, it would have been more reasonable to simply tell me that they didn't want the work.
Any OTHER recommendations welcomed.
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
It much depends on what you want to do.
Few if any UK avionics shops actually understand the equipment beyond following wiring diagrams in the installation manuals.
Anybody can wire up a spare circuit breaker leading to a connector for a yoke mounted GPS.
But if you want some major work done, there are very few firms you can go to who will do a decent job, and you need to go to one that has installed the exact equipment before.
I've had several jobs done, all by "highly recommended" firms, which were not fully functional and I had a choice of keeping it, or constantly flying back to certain airports so they can "have another look" at it.
An example of what happens is a radio altimeter installation which is supposed to connect to the landing gear and warn if the gear is still up when you are below say 200ft or whatever. They get the radalt working, but give up on the warning bit... you still get billed the original price because they offer to "have another look" if you come back
This is why for every person who will recommend a particular firm you will find another who will slag it off.
Sorry to be negative but I've had rather a lot of hassle on this front.
£1400 for a GPS wiring/antenna is ridiculous but might not be if there is a lot of work in the antenna mounting. Under FAA rules (N-reg) you could easily spend £1000 just on the DER drawing approvals for drilling the roof. On G-reg people tend to just drill the holes...
Few if any UK avionics shops actually understand the equipment beyond following wiring diagrams in the installation manuals.
Anybody can wire up a spare circuit breaker leading to a connector for a yoke mounted GPS.
But if you want some major work done, there are very few firms you can go to who will do a decent job, and you need to go to one that has installed the exact equipment before.
I've had several jobs done, all by "highly recommended" firms, which were not fully functional and I had a choice of keeping it, or constantly flying back to certain airports so they can "have another look" at it.
An example of what happens is a radio altimeter installation which is supposed to connect to the landing gear and warn if the gear is still up when you are below say 200ft or whatever. They get the radalt working, but give up on the warning bit... you still get billed the original price because they offer to "have another look" if you come back
This is why for every person who will recommend a particular firm you will find another who will slag it off.
Sorry to be negative but I've had rather a lot of hassle on this front.
£1400 for a GPS wiring/antenna is ridiculous but might not be if there is a lot of work in the antenna mounting. Under FAA rules (N-reg) you could easily spend £1000 just on the DER drawing approvals for drilling the roof. On G-reg people tend to just drill the holes...
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Midlands
My god I am glad I fly on a permit. I did all the avionics, with a tiny bit of help with the navcom. Pluming in my Garmin and mounting the aerial must have taken me all of 45 min and cost - £2 ish. I assume you do a LOT of IFR.
Aerocomms have a good reputation
Rod1
Aerocomms have a good reputation
Rod1
Joined: Apr 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATCO
Posts: 680
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From: An Airport Near You
As Bose said, Dave Jones does a FANTASTIC job. And you have new avionics fitted he hand builds the complete wiring looms at his house to save you miles of un-necessary wiring! A friend had a GNS430 fitted by him + a new wiring loom for the whole panel and this saved a helluva lot of weight! About 30 or 40 lbs IIRC. Well worth a visit and a lovely airfield too (in the summer!!)
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
I assume you do a LOT of IFR
The problem is that if you want to do any overt IFR then you need a plane with an ICAO CofA, and an IR which matches the registration.
By "overt IFR" I mean IFR departures and IFR arrivals. In practice anybody can fly (illegally) enroute in IMC, and I am sure many Permit pilots do just that.
Also, the practical advantage of being able to go fully IFR (airways) is that you can climb on top of the muck and sit there in sunshine, and lack of turbulence.
That is why people pay so much money. If nobody wanted this capability, the world would be taken over totally by non-CofA planes flying (cough cough) "VFR".
There is also a distinct shortage of non-CofA 4-seat tourers that can carry 2 or 3 people, and more than a toothbrush, a decent distance. I fly a TB20 and even if I could only go VFR I would still keep it as long as I can.
I don't want to digress into yet another CofA v. Permit debate but you did ask the question about IFR.
Back to avionics, a lot of avionics get "sorted" unofficially. Lots of people have nice collections of installation manuals (which, while not being confidential, are restricted in availability) and sort out their own issues. It's generally untraceable because no inspector can ever tell if such and such a wire was installed by who, 10 years ago. Avionics also get reconfigured by users, to enable additional features.
The problem is that if you want to do any overt IFR then you need a plane with an ICAO CofA, and an IR which matches the registration.
By "overt IFR" I mean IFR departures and IFR arrivals. In practice anybody can fly (illegally) enroute in IMC, and I am sure many Permit pilots do just that.
Also, the practical advantage of being able to go fully IFR (airways) is that you can climb on top of the muck and sit there in sunshine, and lack of turbulence.
That is why people pay so much money. If nobody wanted this capability, the world would be taken over totally by non-CofA planes flying (cough cough) "VFR".
There is also a distinct shortage of non-CofA 4-seat tourers that can carry 2 or 3 people, and more than a toothbrush, a decent distance. I fly a TB20 and even if I could only go VFR I would still keep it as long as I can.
I don't want to digress into yet another CofA v. Permit debate but you did ask the question about IFR.
Back to avionics, a lot of avionics get "sorted" unofficially. Lots of people have nice collections of installation manuals (which, while not being confidential, are restricted in availability) and sort out their own issues. It's generally untraceable because no inspector can ever tell if such and such a wire was installed by who, 10 years ago. Avionics also get reconfigured by users, to enable additional features.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: london
The irony here is that all I want to do is plumb in the 296 (which is not IR compliant) somewhere it doesn't interfere with the 430 (which is), so this isn't a hugely difficult or complex job, by anyone's standard - hence my frustration at the £1,411 plus vat bill.
Sounds like a trip to Derby or Stapleford is on the cards, just a shame that I can't use the outfit on my home field; ho, hum who can blame them - plumb in a 296 or a £35,000 refit on a citation??? not a tricky choice, methinks!
Sounds like a trip to Derby or Stapleford is on the cards, just a shame that I can't use the outfit on my home field; ho, hum who can blame them - plumb in a 296 or a £35,000 refit on a citation??? not a tricky choice, methinks!
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 6,209
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From: north of barlu
A point missed?
The headline cost of an instalation from this company might well be higher but this will include all the interconections with other kit and a quality job.
Other quotes usualy are only for instalation of the "box", quality of workmanship is very hard to judge but on the whole they are very good.
So the issue here is "what are you getting for your money" and compairing like with like.
I would guess that my aircraft are flying three or four times the hours that you are and reliability is a real issue (aircraft on the ground are not making money) so long term reliability is a paramount.
I think in the long term this company are the cheapest option for my company as I know that if they do the instalation I will get years of trouble free service from the job.
Other quotes usualy are only for instalation of the "box", quality of workmanship is very hard to judge but on the whole they are very good.
So the issue here is "what are you getting for your money" and compairing like with like.
I would guess that my aircraft are flying three or four times the hours that you are and reliability is a real issue (aircraft on the ground are not making money) so long term reliability is a paramount.
I think in the long term this company are the cheapest option for my company as I know that if they do the instalation I will get years of trouble free service from the job.
