Line Up Acronym
camel toe, ts and ps should be checked after take off power has been set, then if anything is awry you close the throttle and abandon the take off.
Regards checking the heading to confirm the correct runway - yes, this is a good airmanship check but can easily be accomplished while you are turning to line up. Matters such as crosswind and where to put the aileron should all have been thought of well before lining up.
Regards checking the heading to confirm the correct runway - yes, this is a good airmanship check but can easily be accomplished while you are turning to line up. Matters such as crosswind and where to put the aileron should all have been thought of well before lining up.
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Camel Toe,
Common sense is a nebulous concept, Airmanship is an extension of common sense. Things change, distractions are ever present, **** happens and assumptions are dangerous. Nothing wrong with your approach, a quick awareness check takes a second and a half.
Common sense is a nebulous concept, Airmanship is an extension of common sense. Things change, distractions are ever present, **** happens and assumptions are dangerous. Nothing wrong with your approach, a quick awareness check takes a second and a half.
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Pitts - spot on!
Some aircraft will have "Runway Checks" listed in their FRCs, some elements of which can be done as you taxy onto the active, and some that must be done brakes-on as you're lined up pointing down the runway. However, I can't think of any GA type that has runway checks listed - it's all taken care of in one set - the pre-takeoffs. I can understand people wanting to leave certain items until they're just about to take-off, but they can easily be switched as you line up on the runway. As was said before, being sat static on the runway at a busy airfield, doing checks you could have easily done as you lined up, really is very poor form. In my humble opinion!
And as for everyone preaching airmanship .... get over yourselves guys! Sitting on the runway doing things you could've thought about before you got there is not good airmanship! You really should be able to check it's the correct runway and have a think about the wind and EFATO options before you enter the runway!
Some aircraft will have "Runway Checks" listed in their FRCs, some elements of which can be done as you taxy onto the active, and some that must be done brakes-on as you're lined up pointing down the runway. However, I can't think of any GA type that has runway checks listed - it's all taken care of in one set - the pre-takeoffs. I can understand people wanting to leave certain items until they're just about to take-off, but they can easily be switched as you line up on the runway. As was said before, being sat static on the runway at a busy airfield, doing checks you could have easily done as you lined up, really is very poor form. In my humble opinion!
And as for everyone preaching airmanship .... get over yourselves guys! Sitting on the runway doing things you could've thought about before you got there is not good airmanship! You really should be able to check it's the correct runway and have a think about the wind and EFATO options before you enter the runway!
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On lining up, check DI heading agrees with runway heading (1/2 second), quick full and free check of the yoke/stick (2-3 secs), check runway is clear (1/4 second) and then go.
Less than 5 seconds to sanity check three items that have killed pilots, whilst there is still time to stop the flight.
When rolling, monitor T&P, airspeed indication, acceleration and be prepared to stop, if unhappy with any.
Less than 5 seconds to sanity check three items that have killed pilots, whilst there is still time to stop the flight.
When rolling, monitor T&P, airspeed indication, acceleration and be prepared to stop, if unhappy with any.
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f3g - full and free is surely a check to be done at the hold not on the r/w, and I personally always check approaches and r/w clear before entering - but can't harm to check it once more before pelting down it 
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rob
Follow the link to see one example of where a quick stir on the controls on the runway would have saved a life.
http://www.caa.govt.nz/Accident_Repo..._02Jul2003.pdf
Still, its a matter of personal choice I guess.
Follow the link to see one example of where a quick stir on the controls on the runway would have saved a life.
http://www.caa.govt.nz/Accident_Repo..._02Jul2003.pdf
Still, its a matter of personal choice I guess.
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I'd still disagree with the inference there that it is necessary to check full and free after line up instead of at the hold.
In this situation I'm assuming that there's a difference due to it being a tug - not holding short of the r/w so the hold checks would be performed then I guess.
In this situation I'm assuming that there's a difference due to it being a tug - not holding short of the r/w so the hold checks would be performed then I guess.
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Cameltoe,
You can go and throw your toys out of your pram if you want, but you asked a question on an open forum and you have gotten some excellent input. You may not agree with it all (and, frankly, I don't agree with it all, either) but when you've got 500 hours under your belt, come back and read this thread, and then decide if you still disagree with me or not. In other words, you're being taught a very pedantic way to fly, which is as it should be, but real-world experience in light aircraft flying in the UK will teach you much different lessons. The answer you got from me was based on experience, not the Trevor Thom books or the view of a particular instructor who's being measured on his adherence to procedures
Yes, if you take position on the runway, stop, and then commence a checklist, you are wasting time on the most valuable and limited resource an airfield has. Show respect for all the other users and minimise your time there. That's dealing in the real world, not training land. You can get pissy about it if you like, but that's reality. It's an unwritten contract amoungst pilots that while you have the runway, it's completely and entirely yours, and everyone will respect that 100% and let you do what you need to do for as long as you need. Your part of that contract is to make most efficient use of your time there. Checking things that you've checked before or you should know before you cross the hold is wasting time on the runway.
At the end of the day, I guess I get frustrated by pilots who try to complicate this hobby of ours. One of my biggest frustrations is people who fly by numbers but don't really understand why. A typical symptom of this approach is an over-reliance on checklists, because they can't think their way through their situation. It's expected of students, but not of experienced pilots, and I hadn't appreciated your situation in my original response.
Comparing our environment to what happens in "commercial aviation" is not terribly relevant and just serves to overcomplicate a very simple light aviation model. If you're flying a C152 out of Heathrow, mixing it up with 747s and the like, then you may have need for more complex checks, but for anything else, try to simplify your flying, not complicate it. A few key check items and a sharp mind that is ahead of the airoplane is far more valuable than a binder full of checklists, graphs, and the like.
Come on down to Popham some time and I'll show you what I mean over a coffee at the clubhouse/hold for runway 26.
Pitts2112
You can go and throw your toys out of your pram if you want, but you asked a question on an open forum and you have gotten some excellent input. You may not agree with it all (and, frankly, I don't agree with it all, either) but when you've got 500 hours under your belt, come back and read this thread, and then decide if you still disagree with me or not. In other words, you're being taught a very pedantic way to fly, which is as it should be, but real-world experience in light aircraft flying in the UK will teach you much different lessons. The answer you got from me was based on experience, not the Trevor Thom books or the view of a particular instructor who's being measured on his adherence to procedures
Yes, if you take position on the runway, stop, and then commence a checklist, you are wasting time on the most valuable and limited resource an airfield has. Show respect for all the other users and minimise your time there. That's dealing in the real world, not training land. You can get pissy about it if you like, but that's reality. It's an unwritten contract amoungst pilots that while you have the runway, it's completely and entirely yours, and everyone will respect that 100% and let you do what you need to do for as long as you need. Your part of that contract is to make most efficient use of your time there. Checking things that you've checked before or you should know before you cross the hold is wasting time on the runway.
At the end of the day, I guess I get frustrated by pilots who try to complicate this hobby of ours. One of my biggest frustrations is people who fly by numbers but don't really understand why. A typical symptom of this approach is an over-reliance on checklists, because they can't think their way through their situation. It's expected of students, but not of experienced pilots, and I hadn't appreciated your situation in my original response.
Comparing our environment to what happens in "commercial aviation" is not terribly relevant and just serves to overcomplicate a very simple light aviation model. If you're flying a C152 out of Heathrow, mixing it up with 747s and the like, then you may have need for more complex checks, but for anything else, try to simplify your flying, not complicate it. A few key check items and a sharp mind that is ahead of the airoplane is far more valuable than a binder full of checklists, graphs, and the like.
Come on down to Popham some time and I'll show you what I mean over a coffee at the clubhouse/hold for runway 26.
Pitts2112
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TO: Pitts
CC: Camel Toe
I agree with you in principle, but what worries me is experienced people telling inexperienced people how to fly. I am inexperienced but I can see that the art of aviation is an organic process, you simplify as you learn because you can only simplify when you truely understand the problem. I don't believe this process should be shortcutted (is that a word?) and thus Camel Toe should stick with her/his training until the point where she/he has the experience and expertise to develop her/his own solutions and methods in line with accepted practice and operational requirements. To me the nature of this reasonable question suggests that she/he is not at that point yet.
However, I think it is reasonable to say how one approaches these things, but some of the other posts are basically implying that if she/he doesn't do it a certain way then she/he shouldn't be flying, makes me uncomfortable does that.
Just my two peneth worth
CC: Camel Toe
I agree with you in principle, but what worries me is experienced people telling inexperienced people how to fly. I am inexperienced but I can see that the art of aviation is an organic process, you simplify as you learn because you can only simplify when you truely understand the problem. I don't believe this process should be shortcutted (is that a word?) and thus Camel Toe should stick with her/his training until the point where she/he has the experience and expertise to develop her/his own solutions and methods in line with accepted practice and operational requirements. To me the nature of this reasonable question suggests that she/he is not at that point yet.
However, I think it is reasonable to say how one approaches these things, but some of the other posts are basically implying that if she/he doesn't do it a certain way then she/he shouldn't be flying, makes me uncomfortable does that.
Just my two peneth worth
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HighWing - the phrase 'nail on the head' springs to mind. As a PPL student I'm personally not yet at the stage where what may be common sense to a 200hours pilot comes naturally, hence I currently rely on checklists, although where possible use it to check what I've done instead of reading straight from it.
aluminium - spot on
aluminium - spot on
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HWD and Robdesbois,
I agree entirely with you both and had I realised that Cameltoe was still a stude, my first post would have been different. I've found that there is always 1 more opinion than there are people in a discussion (there's always one joker with two views!) and my ability to sort the wheat from the chaff has only increased with my own experience. As a student and new PPL, I didn't have the wherewithall to question anything I was being told by anyone, but as I learned through my own experience, that ability has continued to grow (and long may it do so).
What I was responding to in my last was Cameltoe's attitude toward the replies, which was a rather childish "I'll just do what you tell me and take no responsibility for the outcome and if I crash it'll all be your fault" which was both an overdramatisation of the situation and a rather poor attitude for a student to take when receiving the benefit of experience he actually asked for in the first place.
The real issue is with a PPL syllabus that teaches flying by rote memory and procedure more than thought process and analysis, but there's nowt I or Cameltoe can do about that.
Pitts2112
And I was serious about the offer to host CT at Popham.
I agree entirely with you both and had I realised that Cameltoe was still a stude, my first post would have been different. I've found that there is always 1 more opinion than there are people in a discussion (there's always one joker with two views!) and my ability to sort the wheat from the chaff has only increased with my own experience. As a student and new PPL, I didn't have the wherewithall to question anything I was being told by anyone, but as I learned through my own experience, that ability has continued to grow (and long may it do so).
What I was responding to in my last was Cameltoe's attitude toward the replies, which was a rather childish "I'll just do what you tell me and take no responsibility for the outcome and if I crash it'll all be your fault" which was both an overdramatisation of the situation and a rather poor attitude for a student to take when receiving the benefit of experience he actually asked for in the first place.
The real issue is with a PPL syllabus that teaches flying by rote memory and procedure more than thought process and analysis, but there's nowt I or Cameltoe can do about that.
Pitts2112
And I was serious about the offer to host CT at Popham.
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What a nifty thread! But if you go back to the very beginning, what REALLY needs to be done when you line up? The answer to that question should drive the final outcome. If it is as Pitts2112 suggests, not alot (I have to say I'm on his side here), then the answer is not alot. But I'm sure some aircraft (although I'm at a loss here as I can't name any) have to have things done just before they roll and when that is the case, the manufacturer's documentation will provide the answer.
PM
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But I'm sure some aircraft (although I'm at a loss here as I can't name any)
Interesting thread. Someone mentioned commercial aviation but, in reality, there's actually far fewer "line-up check" on an Airbus than some here would advocate for C150!
BA SOPs for line-up are:
Cabin-crew signal - given
Flaps - set
Lights set
First one is obviously irrelevant but the second two are important. Entering the runway you should not be distracted by doing control or other checks which are best completed in the run-up area. However, flap selection, which is easily forgotten, can easily kill you so should be checked. Lights, as a courtesy and warning to others, should be left to lining-up. Finally, pitot heat should be selected on at this point.
I would therefore advocate:
Lights - on
Flaps - set
Pitot heat - on
Checking ts & ps, wind etc should not be part of a checklist at this point but are airmanship. You do not use a check list when turning the aircraft or climbing or descending so why would you use one when rolling down the runway?
BA SOPs for line-up are:
Cabin-crew signal - given
Flaps - set
Lights set
First one is obviously irrelevant but the second two are important. Entering the runway you should not be distracted by doing control or other checks which are best completed in the run-up area. However, flap selection, which is easily forgotten, can easily kill you so should be checked. Lights, as a courtesy and warning to others, should be left to lining-up. Finally, pitot heat should be selected on at this point.
I would therefore advocate:
Lights - on
Flaps - set
Pitot heat - on
Checking ts & ps, wind etc should not be part of a checklist at this point but are airmanship. You do not use a check list when turning the aircraft or climbing or descending so why would you use one when rolling down the runway?
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Apologies for going slightly off-topic...
Ham - I couldn't speak for your commercial experience, but on the military side of the fence there are a few more "runway checks" than for GA. As in there are actually runway checks....
Ham - I couldn't speak for your commercial experience, but on the military side of the fence there are a few more "runway checks" than for GA. As in there are actually runway checks....
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Ham Phisted
Interested in your comment that "Finally, pitot heat should be selected on at this point."
Most of the GA aircraft I flew were swung with the pitot heat on and the effect on the compass could be quite significant, so the "off" reading would tend to be wrong.
So, aren't you leaving it a bit late to switch the pitot on at line up? (Obviously for most VFR flights in good VMC maybe not a major issue, but if were are generalising, should we not consider this?)
Funnily enough, I never check the flaps settings on the runway, as I have set them during the pre takeoff checks on my type, but one reason I'll very quickly "stir" the controls on the runway (not whilst entering) is that flap extension is after control checks on the checklist and I like to make sure that the ailerons still move freely, as I am aware of flap runner (and other) failures that have baulked them.
Still a good thing to consider though, as a quick glance should be all that's needed.
Interested in your comment that "Finally, pitot heat should be selected on at this point."
Most of the GA aircraft I flew were swung with the pitot heat on and the effect on the compass could be quite significant, so the "off" reading would tend to be wrong.
So, aren't you leaving it a bit late to switch the pitot on at line up? (Obviously for most VFR flights in good VMC maybe not a major issue, but if were are generalising, should we not consider this?)
Funnily enough, I never check the flaps settings on the runway, as I have set them during the pre takeoff checks on my type, but one reason I'll very quickly "stir" the controls on the runway (not whilst entering) is that flap extension is after control checks on the checklist and I like to make sure that the ailerons still move freely, as I am aware of flap runner (and other) failures that have baulked them.
Still a good thing to consider though, as a quick glance should be all that's needed.
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 21st May 2007 at 13:07.