PPL(A) plus microlight and / or glider
Thread Starter
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From: Norfolk UK
PPL(A) plus microlight and / or glider
I have a PPL(A) and am a bit confused as to what I need to do to also have a Microlight licence,also perhaps a glider licence.
I've looked in my books and tried searching here,I'm sure it's been on Prune before but can't find it.
Lister
I've looked in my books and tried searching here,I'm sure it's been on Prune before but can't find it.
Lister
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From: Witney
There's no such thing as an official glider pilot's licence in the UK and no minimum qualification hours, so there's no offset for PPL (or CPL!) holders.
The sequence would have to be to turn up at your local gliding club, do some training & go solo (hopefully fairly quickly if you've got a PPL). You would have to learn what rudder pedals are for, winch launching or aerotowing, launch failures, how to share thermals safely with other gliders and field landings
)
You would then have to do the Bronze C theory (shouldn't be a problem for a PPL holder) & bronze qualifying flights, then get signed off for cross country before setting off into the wide blue yonder.
The sequence would have to be to turn up at your local gliding club, do some training & go solo (hopefully fairly quickly if you've got a PPL). You would have to learn what rudder pedals are for, winch launching or aerotowing, launch failures, how to share thermals safely with other gliders and field landings
) You would then have to do the Bronze C theory (shouldn't be a problem for a PPL holder) & bronze qualifying flights, then get signed off for cross country before setting off into the wide blue yonder.
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From: 5 nM S of TNT, UK
You can fly microlights on your PPL(A) but you first have to do "differences training" with a microlight instructor who signs your log book. You cannot use the microlight hours towards the experience requirements of your PPL(A) though.
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From: Bradford
microlights
You can fly microlights on a UK PPL. Normal differences training is req'd if say it's a tailwheeler and you haven't any tailwheel time.
But NOT just because its a microlight.
Going to weight-shift from 3-axis, yes, proper training with a microlight instructor is recommended, for hopefully obvious reasons. (avoids half a day out with the undertaker)
The NPPL's privileges are another matter, LASORS has more info.
But NOT just because its a microlight.
Going to weight-shift from 3-axis, yes, proper training with a microlight instructor is recommended, for hopefully obvious reasons. (avoids half a day out with the undertaker)
The NPPL's privileges are another matter, LASORS has more info.
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From: 5 nM S of TNT, UK
Sorry Mr Hills, my post was correct. I was in just this situation and specifically asked the BMAA. Even if you want to fly 3 axis microlights, you must have signed off "differences training" (even though there aren't many). It also must be with a microlight instructor.
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From: South Norfolk, England
Muffin,
You are right and wrong at the same time
. As TTH's says, with a UK PPL (CAA) you don't need any formal training (due to grandfather rights). However, if you have a newer Euro PPL, then as you say, you do need differences training to fly a microlight. The tailwheel differences applies to both unless you have previously flown tailwheel. In either case you'd be daft not to have a good checkout, as there is considerable difference in inertia between most microlights and typical group A aircraft.
SS
You are right and wrong at the same time
. As TTH's says, with a UK PPL (CAA) you don't need any formal training (due to grandfather rights). However, if you have a newer Euro PPL, then as you say, you do need differences training to fly a microlight. The tailwheel differences applies to both unless you have previously flown tailwheel. In either case you'd be daft not to have a good checkout, as there is considerable difference in inertia between most microlights and typical group A aircraft.SS
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From: Bradford
inertia
SS
I seem to remember flying several different D31 Turbulents, these weigh in at the huge sum of 281 Kg.
Even the T31 can only manage 395 Kg (G-BCYH)
At 450Kg a microlight is heavyweight stuff !
No-one ever said they were hard to fly, so I'm afraid I just did it !
I seem to remember flying several different D31 Turbulents, these weigh in at the huge sum of 281 Kg.
Even the T31 can only manage 395 Kg (G-BCYH)
At 450Kg a microlight is heavyweight stuff !
No-one ever said they were hard to fly, so I'm afraid I just did it !
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From: South Norfolk, England
Hmmm, well that conflicts with the advice I was given by the very same a few years ago when I bought a flexwing 
Also, (and this is just me pontificating without reference to licence or LASORs) if you look at the wording in your licence you can fly any single engine aircraft up to 5000kg. As there is no specific microlight rating and no reference to "microlight" in your licence, you must be able to legally fly on your CAA PPL A.
SS
PS. When I get home and check, I'm bound to find memory has failed me and I'm completely wrong
PPS. I can't even remember for sure if 5000kg is the correct limit
PPPS. At what age does Altzheimers start to creep in?
Also, (and this is just me pontificating without reference to licence or LASORs) if you look at the wording in your licence you can fly any single engine aircraft up to 5000kg. As there is no specific microlight rating and no reference to "microlight" in your licence, you must be able to legally fly on your CAA PPL A.
SS
PS. When I get home and check, I'm bound to find memory has failed me and I'm completely wrong
PPS. I can't even remember for sure if 5000kg is the correct limit
PPPS. At what age does Altzheimers start to creep in?
Joined: Dec 1999
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From: Oop North, UK
I had not picked this up before - I should also be OK with grandfather rights, but yes, reading LASORS it does say that microlights need signing off - but it would seem (though I might not have found it yet) that a 3 axis sign off will cover all microlights. IMHO I would have thought it much more important to be signed off going 3 axis to weight shift than just non microlight to microlight - You could be flying a 'heavyweight' RANs and need the sign off to fly the lighter version but then go straight to weightshift with nothing more which seems a bit daft.
Last edited by foxmoth; 18th May 2007 at 08:01.
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From: South Norfolk, England
inertia
TTH,
That was pretty much my approach until told by sombody that I couldn't. When I checked I found I was legal .... Safe was another thing
I gave up the flexwing as I couldn't find anyone in the area to train me. I self taught for a while but as the landings were too much like arrivals I thought I'd best quit whilst ahead. I have flown older three axis with no problem, but you have to admit, they do rather fall out of the sky when power is cut. That of course is no problem, and they can land on a postage stamp, but if you've only ever flown Cessnas, you might be in for a shock as you round out and chop the throttle
The lighter end of group A and SLMG's may very well be light, but they tend to have a heavier wing loading or better L/D and so do have more (for want of a better word) inertia, which is what I meant. The modern super hot microlights are different again, and I'm sure the difference is hardly an issue at all.
SS
That was pretty much my approach until told by sombody that I couldn't. When I checked I found I was legal .... Safe was another thing
I gave up the flexwing as I couldn't find anyone in the area to train me. I self taught for a while but as the landings were too much like arrivals I thought I'd best quit whilst ahead. I have flown older three axis with no problem, but you have to admit, they do rather fall out of the sky when power is cut. That of course is no problem, and they can land on a postage stamp, but if you've only ever flown Cessnas, you might be in for a shock as you round out and chop the throttle
The lighter end of group A and SLMG's may very well be light, but they tend to have a heavier wing loading or better L/D and so do have more (for want of a better word) inertia, which is what I meant. The modern super hot microlights are different again, and I'm sure the difference is hardly an issue at all.
SS
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2005
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From: Norfolk UK
Thanks for all the replies,I think I get the drift.
It seems that I can fly gliders on my PPL after some instruction and passing an exam.
Microlights, need a differences check out with instructor and signing off.
Is this right?
Lister
It seems that I can fly gliders on my PPL after some instruction and passing an exam.
Microlights, need a differences check out with instructor and signing off.
Is this right?
Lister
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Norfolk
Hi Lister
The differences training answer is correct for a microlight.
The same applies for an SLMG licence which is added to your JAR PPL.
But for glider you need to have a check with a BGA instructor who will issue you a BGA Gliding licence - I believe they act as an 'agent' for the CAA in these matters.
Of course don't underestimate the time or skills involved for each conversion (having done all 3 at some point or another !)
I'd suggest you zip into Tibenham in the Cub (with PPR of course !!) and check it out. I believe there are people there who can do all 3 for you.
I'm sure Jim L can advise you of a contact there.
Regards from NZ
Arc
The differences training answer is correct for a microlight.
The same applies for an SLMG licence which is added to your JAR PPL.
But for glider you need to have a check with a BGA instructor who will issue you a BGA Gliding licence - I believe they act as an 'agent' for the CAA in these matters.
Of course don't underestimate the time or skills involved for each conversion (having done all 3 at some point or another !)
I'd suggest you zip into Tibenham in the Cub (with PPR of course !!) and check it out. I believe there are people there who can do all 3 for you.
I'm sure Jim L can advise you of a contact there.
Regards from NZ
Arc
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: South Norfolk, England
Arclite01,
Pretty much spot on except differences training adds a SLMG or microlight "rating" to your UK JAR-FCL licence, it doesn't give you a microlight or SLMG "licence". For that, (not that it makes much difference "except perhaps for flight abroad"?) you get an NPPL. If you have an old UK CAA PPL, the SLMG is already included and just needs a cert of test or cert of experience to be valid. There was no seperate microlight rating then, so microlights were just flown on the strength of your PPL and this is still a "Grandfather" right.
To summise ...
To fly a glider, no official licence is required in the UK, so to fly one you "simply" need to go to a club and get checked out. There is a series of "badges" and "diplomas" that you work through as you gain experience. You can now get a glider licence, but apart from being recognised abroad, isn't needed here. Interestingly, though it's set to change, you can fly a glider in the UK from your home strip with no licence, and no CofA (for older types). However, apart from probably killing yourself, you would legally need insurance, which I doubt you'd get.
To fly an SLMG
Old UK CAA PPL ... Cert of test or experience as the rating is included.
JAR PPL ... Differences training to add a SLMG rating.
or get a NPPL (SLMG)
Both the above do no allow hours to be used to keep your SEP current. For that you need a TMG rating. To add that to a UK CAA PPL, you need a current SLMG rating (ie cert of test or experience) and to send £76 to the CAA. For a JAR PPL, you need to pass a TMG flight test with a qualified TMG examiner, to add the rating + pay the CAA.
To fly a microlight
CAA PPL ... You can fly, but differences training is recommended.
JAR PPL ... Differences training is required.
or get a NPPL (microlights)
Microlight hours do not count toward SEP currency in all cases.
SS
Pretty much spot on except differences training adds a SLMG or microlight "rating" to your UK JAR-FCL licence, it doesn't give you a microlight or SLMG "licence". For that, (not that it makes much difference "except perhaps for flight abroad"?) you get an NPPL. If you have an old UK CAA PPL, the SLMG is already included and just needs a cert of test or cert of experience to be valid. There was no seperate microlight rating then, so microlights were just flown on the strength of your PPL and this is still a "Grandfather" right.
To summise ...
To fly a glider, no official licence is required in the UK, so to fly one you "simply" need to go to a club and get checked out. There is a series of "badges" and "diplomas" that you work through as you gain experience. You can now get a glider licence, but apart from being recognised abroad, isn't needed here. Interestingly, though it's set to change, you can fly a glider in the UK from your home strip with no licence, and no CofA (for older types). However, apart from probably killing yourself, you would legally need insurance, which I doubt you'd get.
To fly an SLMG
Old UK CAA PPL ... Cert of test or experience as the rating is included.
JAR PPL ... Differences training to add a SLMG rating.
or get a NPPL (SLMG)
Both the above do no allow hours to be used to keep your SEP current. For that you need a TMG rating. To add that to a UK CAA PPL, you need a current SLMG rating (ie cert of test or experience) and to send £76 to the CAA. For a JAR PPL, you need to pass a TMG flight test with a qualified TMG examiner, to add the rating + pay the CAA.
To fly a microlight
CAA PPL ... You can fly, but differences training is recommended.
JAR PPL ... Differences training is required.
or get a NPPL (microlights)
Microlight hours do not count toward SEP currency in all cases.
SS
Last edited by shortstripper; 19th May 2007 at 07:59.
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From: Witney
To be slightly pedantic, you wouldn't be flying a glider on your PPL.
Learning to fly a glider would be helped a lot by your PPL training but the (fairly minimal) paperwork requirement to fly cross country would be issued by the BGA.
Having gone solo you could continue to fly club-owned gliders within gliding range of the airfield (which can be quite a long way!) solely at the discretion of the duty instructor with absolutely no paperwork whatsoever. But it wouldn't be a lot of fun!
The insurance companies as usual probably have more influence over who flies what than the BGA.
Learning to fly a glider would be helped a lot by your PPL training but the (fairly minimal) paperwork requirement to fly cross country would be issued by the BGA.
Having gone solo you could continue to fly club-owned gliders within gliding range of the airfield (which can be quite a long way!) solely at the discretion of the duty instructor with absolutely no paperwork whatsoever. But it wouldn't be a lot of fun!
The insurance companies as usual probably have more influence over who flies what than the BGA.
Joined: Dec 2006
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From: Northumberland UK
What is the situation with microlights with regard to hire. I seem to remember that hireing was allowed whilst training but not allowed once completed, so you needed to buy one or buy into a group. Is that still the case?
Last edited by bonniejack; 21st May 2007 at 16:48. Reason: spelling
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From: Oxford
Be very careful in flexwings!
Not sure if you're talking about 3-axis or flexwings - but if the latter, there are two terrible hazards for an experienced 3-axis aircraft pilot taking up flexwings, and maintaining currency on them:
1 - Sense of the pitch control is reversed
2 - Sense of the taxi steering control is reversed
I hear anecdotally that far too many people have been killed as a consequence of these fundamental differences. Regardless of how careful one is, there is always the risk that in a difficult and stressful situation, one will instinctively pull the bar back to flare - and you'll be lucky if that mistake is not fatal. Having started training on flexwings, then (after a gap of a year) started training for my PPL(A), I had a great deal of difficulty making my feet push the correct sense when steering a 3-axis aircraft.
However - flexwings are great fun! They're a wonderfully in-your-face flying experience, and the visibility is astounding.
AFAIK, it is still illegal to rent a microlight. You're either a student training (dual or solo), or you own one, either whole or share.
1 - Sense of the pitch control is reversed
2 - Sense of the taxi steering control is reversed
I hear anecdotally that far too many people have been killed as a consequence of these fundamental differences. Regardless of how careful one is, there is always the risk that in a difficult and stressful situation, one will instinctively pull the bar back to flare - and you'll be lucky if that mistake is not fatal. Having started training on flexwings, then (after a gap of a year) started training for my PPL(A), I had a great deal of difficulty making my feet push the correct sense when steering a 3-axis aircraft.
However - flexwings are great fun! They're a wonderfully in-your-face flying experience, and the visibility is astounding.
What is the situation with microlights with regard to hire. I seem to remember that hireing was allowed whilst training but not allowed once completed, so you needed to buy one or buy into a group. Is that still the case?
Carbonfibre-based lifeform
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From: London
AFAIK, it is still illegal to rent a microlight.
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From: South Norfolk, England
michaelthewannabe,
Whilst I'm sure what you say is very valid, I didn't find it a problem when I was self teaching myself to "kind of" handle a flexwing. The weightshift control is very intuitive and the ground steering is just like the soapbox type go-carts I made as a kid. The problem I had was with the throttle control. It was a car type foot accelerator attached to the front wheel steering bar. It wasn't very progressive and along with steering, I seemed to either give it all or nothing. This ended up in a few hard landings, the last of which caused a ferrell to pull through on the axle support cable. I'd worked up to taking off, flying around a very large field at about 50-100' and landing again. I did this many times, until my landings started to deteriorate. I gave up at that point ... which in hindsight was a very wise decision
. At no point did I revert to type, and there were a few moments of stress. My biggest surprise was how quickly the bar needed pulling back on take off, to stop the AofA getting silly
One day I might learn properly, but to be honest, I really think I'm a confirmed three axis man
SS
Whilst I'm sure what you say is very valid, I didn't find it a problem when I was self teaching myself to "kind of" handle a flexwing. The weightshift control is very intuitive and the ground steering is just like the soapbox type go-carts I made as a kid. The problem I had was with the throttle control. It was a car type foot accelerator attached to the front wheel steering bar. It wasn't very progressive and along with steering, I seemed to either give it all or nothing. This ended up in a few hard landings, the last of which caused a ferrell to pull through on the axle support cable. I'd worked up to taking off, flying around a very large field at about 50-100' and landing again. I did this many times, until my landings started to deteriorate. I gave up at that point ... which in hindsight was a very wise decision
. At no point did I revert to type, and there were a few moments of stress. My biggest surprise was how quickly the bar needed pulling back on take off, to stop the AofA getting silly One day I might learn properly, but to be honest, I really think I'm a confirmed three axis man
SS
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Oxford
Thanks for the comments, shortstripper. Perhaps I have particular difficulties with control sense reversals: I guess everyone has different aptitudes and experiences. I didn't have difficulty with the foot throttle after a little bit of practice, but slight variations in the mechanism on different types might make a huge difference to the ease of control: I was on the latest and greatest Pegasus Quik GT, which seemed a lot nicer to fly in many respects than some older types.
Your decision to quit while ahead sounds like the mark of a good pilot.
Your decision to quit while ahead sounds like the mark of a good pilot.
