Engine upgrade for light single - possible?
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
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Engine upgrade for light single - possible?
Is it possible to upgrade the engine in a light single when it comes to replacement time?
I'm thinking of aircraft where the manufacturer has already put a variety of engines into basically the same airframe - e.g. from a PA28 140 to a 180, or a Robin DR400 120 to 160 or 180?
And if possible, is it practical and economic?
SD
I'm thinking of aircraft where the manufacturer has already put a variety of engines into basically the same airframe - e.g. from a PA28 140 to a 180, or a Robin DR400 120 to 160 or 180?
And if possible, is it practical and economic?
SD
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Is this aircraft registered with a CofA (in which case the answer will be: close to impossible) or on some sort of Permit to Fly (in which case I think you'll only have to find an inspector who's happy with the mod, and possibly the PFA)?
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I looked into upgrading a DR400 engine many years ago. The CAA wanted irrefutable evidence that there would be no difference between the original 180 hp aircraft and the aircraft modified to 180. Robin would have to be very cooperative, and the cost would be high. The only way I think you could make it work would be to get Apex to do the work and certify that your aircraft was now a full specification 180….
On a PFA permit, provided the larger engine installation is PFA approved, then you will have very little problem. A large number of 80 hp Rotax 912’s have been upgraded to 100 hp at a mod cost of £22.50 and a signature from an inspector.
Rod1
On a PFA permit, provided the larger engine installation is PFA approved, then you will have very little problem. A large number of 80 hp Rotax 912’s have been upgraded to 100 hp at a mod cost of £22.50 and a signature from an inspector.
Rod1
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We upgraded our PA28-140 from 150hp to 160hp after the engine expired. The cost difference was trivial.
The trick is to find someone else in the UK who has done the mod before you and use their paperwork.
I am hopeful that this type of thing will get easier under EASA. If nothing else there will be a bigger pool of aircraft that may have been modded before you.
The trick is to find someone else in the UK who has done the mod before you and use their paperwork.
I am hopeful that this type of thing will get easier under EASA. If nothing else there will be a bigger pool of aircraft that may have been modded before you.
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Anything is possible but the cost may be prohibitive.
To put some randomly chosen engine into a G-reg or N-reg CofA plane would cost, at a guess, hundreds of thousands of pounds in paperwork and a huge amount of time.
In the USA you can do it, by reclassifying the plane as "experimental", and this has resulted in some amazing planes with e.g. turbine engines. Here this cannot be done, since the CAA requires (as a revenue maintenance measure) that any plane capable of having a CofA to have a CofA. There are some exceptions where a given type exists on both CofA and Permit.
The UK Permit category and applicable paperwork issues I know nothing about.
To put some randomly chosen engine into a G-reg or N-reg CofA plane would cost, at a guess, hundreds of thousands of pounds in paperwork and a huge amount of time.
In the USA you can do it, by reclassifying the plane as "experimental", and this has resulted in some amazing planes with e.g. turbine engines. Here this cannot be done, since the CAA requires (as a revenue maintenance measure) that any plane capable of having a CofA to have a CofA. There are some exceptions where a given type exists on both CofA and Permit.
The UK Permit category and applicable paperwork issues I know nothing about.
At one time in the UK a certified aircraft with a non standard engine would be given a special category C of A.
An example was Hughes 269A/A1 G-BAXE which was a 269A with a 269B
engine.
An example was Hughes 269A/A1 G-BAXE which was a 269A with a 269B
engine.
Moderator
In Canada such changes are possible, and are in the thousands to ten's of thousands of dollars for the paperwork. This is the nature of the work I do. I recently completed an STC program to permit the modification of TCM IO-520's to be carburetted, and installed into all older Cessna 180's and 182's.
EASA's and ICAO's far reaching influence however, is making this kind of modification more difficult even over here, as we are now forced to comply with ICAO noise limits, and the testing is very expensive. (yes the IO-520 on the front of a 180 makes no more noise than it makes on the front of the 185 where it came from, but we're still being told to test!)
Bottom line, save your money,and buy the plane you want, the way it left the factory, there is still a great selection out there...
Cheers,
Pilot DAR
EASA's and ICAO's far reaching influence however, is making this kind of modification more difficult even over here, as we are now forced to comply with ICAO noise limits, and the testing is very expensive. (yes the IO-520 on the front of a 180 makes no more noise than it makes on the front of the 185 where it came from, but we're still being told to test!)
Bottom line, save your money,and buy the plane you want, the way it left the factory, there is still a great selection out there...
Cheers,
Pilot DAR
So (just musing on the topic in general) did it cost a small fortune to do mods such as puting a couple of Darts on a DC-3 ... or how else was that achieved ??
I am sure a quick trawl will find all sorts of oddities, in all sorts of categories, with mods to severely increase the performance or reliability - and a lot of them were one offs.
I am due to have a check ride in a diesel Warrior on Saturday, I wonder how much the STC for that cost ???
I am sure a quick trawl will find all sorts of oddities, in all sorts of categories, with mods to severely increase the performance or reliability - and a lot of them were one offs.
I am due to have a check ride in a diesel Warrior on Saturday, I wonder how much the STC for that cost ???
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You probably do not want to know how much of the 60,000 euros that the Thielert 'costs' went into the paperwork. But Mercedes would have sold the basic engine for about 2,000 euros, suitable gerbox etc might triple that. Then you're into the jumping through hoops area where costs have no basis on benefit.
You'll perhaps recall that certain British engine manufacturers complained to EASA that the basic elements of the Thielert were not built in a JAR controlled environment and so the engine should not be certified - which tells you a lot about what the rules are actualled used for...
The majority of those interesting one-offs are now impossible to build. But never mind look how much safer if all is.......
You'll perhaps recall that certain British engine manufacturers complained to EASA that the basic elements of the Thielert were not built in a JAR controlled environment and so the engine should not be certified - which tells you a lot about what the rules are actualled used for...
The majority of those interesting one-offs are now impossible to build. But never mind look how much safer if all is.......
Eric Clutton upgraded his FRED homebuilt via the PFA system. Started with a variety of Douglas and Scott motorbike engines, Lawrence radial from a PBY generator, various belt drive VW conversions, a Franklin 65hp and finally a Cont A65. Very simple on a PFA permit.
I've converted a Lucas SR4 magneto 1600 VW to a Ford Mondeo sparked 1835 VW with almost zero problems or paperwork.
Eventually (well, quite soon or so it seems) there will not be any O-200s left so either they get remanufactured or a lot of CofA aircraft might get left on the ground. Anyone tried buying an O-200 recently???
I've converted a Lucas SR4 magneto 1600 VW to a Ford Mondeo sparked 1835 VW with almost zero problems or paperwork.
Eventually (well, quite soon or so it seems) there will not be any O-200s left so either they get remanufactured or a lot of CofA aircraft might get left on the ground. Anyone tried buying an O-200 recently???
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AIUI
Different and more powerful engine equals:-
different prop, equals different gyroscopic effects, equals different weight and balance equals increased fuel flow equals re-doing the fuel flow calculations, equals rethinking and testing the cooling arrangements, equals new baffles equals changes to the cowling design equals a new test program to deal with the changes in performance equals re-stressing of the engine mount (even if it fits), equals rewriting the POH equals trebles all round for the regulators who find they have lots of lucrative chargeable work to do.
Of course if someone's already jumped through all the hoops before it's a lot easier.
Relatively minor changes are much simpler. Some of the small Continentals can be upgraded by component changes and a change from say a C85 to an O-200 is not too difficult because the engines are very similar. However there can be major issues if for example the engine has to be shifted forward because there is insufficient clearance for the new paraphenalia sticking out of the accessory case. (In the Luscombe they got round it by fitting a dishpan in the firewall rather than a new mount).
(Are you asking in connection with the shiny new steed I saw you with at N Weald last year?)
Mike
Different and more powerful engine equals:-
different prop, equals different gyroscopic effects, equals different weight and balance equals increased fuel flow equals re-doing the fuel flow calculations, equals rethinking and testing the cooling arrangements, equals new baffles equals changes to the cowling design equals a new test program to deal with the changes in performance equals re-stressing of the engine mount (even if it fits), equals rewriting the POH equals trebles all round for the regulators who find they have lots of lucrative chargeable work to do.
Of course if someone's already jumped through all the hoops before it's a lot easier.
Relatively minor changes are much simpler. Some of the small Continentals can be upgraded by component changes and a change from say a C85 to an O-200 is not too difficult because the engines are very similar. However there can be major issues if for example the engine has to be shifted forward because there is insufficient clearance for the new paraphenalia sticking out of the accessory case. (In the Luscombe they got round it by fitting a dishpan in the firewall rather than a new mount).
(Are you asking in connection with the shiny new steed I saw you with at N Weald last year?)
Mike
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You'll perhaps recall that certain British engine manufacturers complained to EASA that the basic elements of the Thielert were not built in a JAR controlled environment and so the engine should not be certified - which tells you a lot about what the rules are actualled used for...
Which engine mfg was that? There aren't many in the UK today.
The "JAR controlled environment" is a load of bull. Anybody with the right authority can buy in a part and certify it by inspecting it and writing out a piece of paper. Otherwise, the aluminium used in a plane with an EASA CofA would have to be made in an EASA approved facility....
It's however true that standards are perversely used to block newcomers into a market. Those who have "reached the standard" (meaning: spent the money on some consultant to generate the paperwork) don't want anybody else to follow them.
Which engine mfg was that? There aren't many in the UK today.
The "JAR controlled environment" is a load of bull. Anybody with the right authority can buy in a part and certify it by inspecting it and writing out a piece of paper. Otherwise, the aluminium used in a plane with an EASA CofA would have to be made in an EASA approved facility....
It's however true that standards are perversely used to block newcomers into a market. Those who have "reached the standard" (meaning: spent the money on some consultant to generate the paperwork) don't want anybody else to follow them.
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
Thread Starter
Thanks all for your views, opinions and advice!
I kind of expected that it would not be easy to upgrade a DR400 120 to a 180, or a PA28 140 to a 180.
Still, worth asking the Q.
Cheers,
SD
I kind of expected that it would not be easy to upgrade a DR400 120 to a 180, or a PA28 140 to a 180.
Still, worth asking the Q.
Cheers,
SD
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FYI:
There are UK registered Grumman AA1's & 5's with upgraded/rated Lycomings.
AA1 Original - Lyc. O-235-C2C (108hp) upgraded to a Lycoming O-320-E2G
AA5 Original Lyc. O-320-E2G(?) (150hp) uprated to 160hp
(Higher compression pistons and other magical stuff)
So it can be done (but usually on the back of a recognised USA issued STC)
There are UK registered Grumman AA1's & 5's with upgraded/rated Lycomings.
AA1 Original - Lyc. O-235-C2C (108hp) upgraded to a Lycoming O-320-E2G
AA5 Original Lyc. O-320-E2G(?) (150hp) uprated to 160hp
(Higher compression pistons and other magical stuff)
So it can be done (but usually on the back of a recognised USA issued STC)
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Just to correct that last post, the STC upgrade of the AA5 still results in a (on paper) 150hp engine. To save the costs of having to amend the performance figures with a new series of flight tests the engine is derated to 150hp by reducing the red line, to I believe 2600rpm, down from 2750rpm. However you still get the full use of the extra HP for T/O and climb which is the main reason for doing the modification.
20 years ago I was involved in a mod to fit a long range tank which was also a two place seat in a UK aircraft. Although it had an American STC it still cost over £6,000 to get it UK certified. That must be at least £15,000 in todays prices.
The problem is that these major modifications are an open ended process over which you have little cost control. The first aircraft done costs a fortune, but if you can mod more aircraft you can recover some of your R&D costs.
How an earth you would do this dealing with the Clowns of Cologne is beyond me. I would just buy an aircraft that better suited my needs.
The problem is that these major modifications are an open ended process over which you have little cost control. The first aircraft done costs a fortune, but if you can mod more aircraft you can recover some of your R&D costs.
How an earth you would do this dealing with the Clowns of Cologne is beyond me. I would just buy an aircraft that better suited my needs.
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In a way, the clowns of Cologne can help........... I seem to remember a company down south having purchased a Big Twin on the US register attempting to put it on the UK one, they were told that the props were not recognised on the UK register so had to be changed, An enterprising member of staff found them fitted on a Spanish registered aircraft so the CAA had to allow it onto the UK Reg.. swings and roundabouts.......
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I seem to remember a company down south having purchased a Big Twin on the US register attempting to put it on the UK one, they were told that the props were not recognised on the UK register so had to be changed, An enterprising member of staff found them fitted on a Spanish registered aircraft so the CAA had to allow it onto the UK Reg
This is a very real issue. There is no central database of approved mods in Europe and the vast majority of stuff that has been approved locally is never made use of - because nobody can find it.
The CAA has their AAN database, but there is no database for Europe as a whole.
This could be one of the great advantages of EASA.... when they get it all together.
This is a very real issue. There is no central database of approved mods in Europe and the vast majority of stuff that has been approved locally is never made use of - because nobody can find it.
The CAA has their AAN database, but there is no database for Europe as a whole.
This could be one of the great advantages of EASA.... when they get it all together.
