ELT Now a legal requirment
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The ELT does not have to be registered to an aircraft, it can be registered to a dustbin for all the MCA care as long as the know who to contact if it goes off. A flying club would buy them and register them to the club. When you file the flight plan you put the EPIRB Hex ID onto the flight plan at the bottom. If the ELT is activated they contact the registered holder and the holder will then confirm via the booking out system log if the flight is real or it is a false alarm.
The average location time in Europe for a GPS transmitting EPIRB is 12 minutes not 90. A multi frequency unit improves the rescue rate to an average of 30 minutes from activation.
The average location time in Europe for a GPS transmitting EPIRB is 12 minutes not 90. A multi frequency unit improves the rescue rate to an average of 30 minutes from activation.
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The average location time in Europe for a GPS transmitting EPIRB is 12 minutes not 90. A multi frequency unit improves the rescue rate to an average of 30 minutes from activation.
Moreover if you get into the liferaft (which you are not legally obliged to carry I suppose) how far will the liferaft have drifted from the aircraft?
(and I appreciate that if the ELT was detected the coastguard do have some reasonable technology to extrapolate where you may have drifted to).
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I think something is missing from our understanding of the law here. Surely if this really did become a change in the law, the CAA would have informed us, if not directly as a/c owners, then through GASIL, the clubs, the mags, the safety evenings etc. Until I hear through such a more formal route (as opposed to no doubt well-intended rumour on this thread) I'll simply ignore it.
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Sorry Fuji, I was referring to the portable option. I happen to think fitting an ELT to an aircraft is just stupid. You are totally right what happens if the aircraft sinks?
I will stick with the McMurdo!
I will stick with the McMurdo!
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Bose,
The info I have is from Harry M, so give them a call. You have registered yours; did you enter aircraft reg and your mobile number? Your top end device (according to Harry) will have a position in 3 min and be desperately trying to find a satellite. The satellites overfly every 90 min (for UK). If you are in the water you need rescue a lot faster than 30 min. The unit, for water rescue, is about as much use as a chocolate teapot. If you go down in the highlands then 30 min to know your position may be ok, but for radio equipped aircraft flying high, we will have a Maday out and the unit would be close to redundant. I carry a transceiver which would be much more use.
Rod1
The info I have is from Harry M, so give them a call. You have registered yours; did you enter aircraft reg and your mobile number? Your top end device (according to Harry) will have a position in 3 min and be desperately trying to find a satellite. The satellites overfly every 90 min (for UK). If you are in the water you need rescue a lot faster than 30 min. The unit, for water rescue, is about as much use as a chocolate teapot. If you go down in the highlands then 30 min to know your position may be ok, but for radio equipped aircraft flying high, we will have a Maday out and the unit would be close to redundant. I carry a transceiver which would be much more use.
Rod1
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I have a radio as well. And in the airways I can glide clear from a very long way when crossing the channel. Airways to LFAT I can glide to the runway!
I still think carrying an ELT is a good idea. The 90mins figure is the worst case scenario. The AVERAGE times are minutes. In Europe we are generally in the footprint of the sats for longer. However if I was concerned about being in the water for 90 mins I would wear a dry suit. Having spent 12hrs in the water after a dive boat broke down following a 6hr dive, 90 mins is a walk in the park!!!
I just dont think fixed ELT are a good idea, in fact I think they are stupid and just another way for the regulators to make money from us.
My ELT is registered to me personally with no aircraft details, they have my home number and mobile. So I can and do lend it to people.
I still think carrying an ELT is a good idea. The 90mins figure is the worst case scenario. The AVERAGE times are minutes. In Europe we are generally in the footprint of the sats for longer. However if I was concerned about being in the water for 90 mins I would wear a dry suit. Having spent 12hrs in the water after a dive boat broke down following a 6hr dive, 90 mins is a walk in the park!!!
I just dont think fixed ELT are a good idea, in fact I think they are stupid and just another way for the regulators to make money from us.
My ELT is registered to me personally with no aircraft details, they have my home number and mobile. So I can and do lend it to people.
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Can we assume that our flight plans will not be approved if we cross out ELT then? That is ofcourse we file to cross say from LYD dct as apposed DVR to Cap gris-nez
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Until I hear through such a more formal route (as opposed to no doubt well-intended rumour on this thread) I'll simply ignore it.
but as is usually the case ignorance is no excuse and all that .. .. ..
it would seem it HAS been sneeked into the ANO as an amendment and the amendment has been given Royal ascent - so it is law.
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The satellites overfly every 90 min (for UK).
"Near instantaneous alerting in the GEOSAR coverage area" which includes the UK
From the horses mouth at www.cospas-sarsat.org
There are ELT's that are quick detachable from their racks and have a manually deployable aerial.
However they are not designed for a water emergency. They are designed for use following an accident on land where the survivors can remove it and use it manually.
Who in their right mind is going to hang around in a sinking aircraft trying to undo fasteners that they are probably not familiar with.
The only sensible comparison is with offshore going helicopters.
They have a deployable beacon which floats.
The crews carry personal locator beacons.
They do have ELT's but these would only work while the aircraft floats, given that helicopters have emergency floatation devices this makes sense.
If the quotes from the ANO are accurate then someone at the CAA needs to come forward and explain exactly what is required.
No one should rush out to buy a fixed ELT for water crossing purposes, it is not what they are designed for.
However they are not designed for a water emergency. They are designed for use following an accident on land where the survivors can remove it and use it manually.
Who in their right mind is going to hang around in a sinking aircraft trying to undo fasteners that they are probably not familiar with.
The only sensible comparison is with offshore going helicopters.
They have a deployable beacon which floats.
The crews carry personal locator beacons.
They do have ELT's but these would only work while the aircraft floats, given that helicopters have emergency floatation devices this makes sense.
If the quotes from the ANO are accurate then someone at the CAA needs to come forward and explain exactly what is required.
No one should rush out to buy a fixed ELT for water crossing purposes, it is not what they are designed for.
Last edited by ericferret; 13th Apr 2007 at 13:00. Reason: spacing
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
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The "right answer" for me was a GPS EPIRB - the McMurdo Fastfind Plus seems to do the job.
£470 from Tr@ns@ir or £380 from yottie shops (for the same unit). Fill in the card with the details and post it off.
I'm told the EPIRB will take up to ten minutes to work out where it is from the GPS satellites, but yell for help immediately, and will be heard within a couple of minutes. I've not researched it, but aren't there two sets of satellites - one set geostationary for fast identification, and one set moving that take bearings to work out where you are?
£470 from Tr@ns@ir or £380 from yottie shops (for the same unit). Fill in the card with the details and post it off.
I'm told the EPIRB will take up to ten minutes to work out where it is from the GPS satellites, but yell for help immediately, and will be heard within a couple of minutes. I've not researched it, but aren't there two sets of satellites - one set geostationary for fast identification, and one set moving that take bearings to work out where you are?
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"Near instantaneous alerting in the GEOSAR coverage area" which includes the UK
Correct, BUT the coverage area is dependent on the satellite position and can take a max of 90 min in the UK, this is CLEARLY shown on the fastfind data sheet. 30 min is average.
QUOTE
“The Fastfind standard 406MHz Personal Location Beacon provides an alert signal to the rescue services within 90 minutes maximum, depending on the satellite passes and gives a positional accuracy to within 3nm.
UNQUOTE
Have a look at if you want a full independent report;
http://www.equipped.org/key_west_beacon_test_report.pdf
Rod1
Edited to add, for those who do not want to read the test in full.
You appear to have a 57% chance of the thing working at all if you are in the water!!!!!
Correct, BUT the coverage area is dependent on the satellite position and can take a max of 90 min in the UK, this is CLEARLY shown on the fastfind data sheet. 30 min is average.
QUOTE
“The Fastfind standard 406MHz Personal Location Beacon provides an alert signal to the rescue services within 90 minutes maximum, depending on the satellite passes and gives a positional accuracy to within 3nm.
UNQUOTE
Have a look at if you want a full independent report;
http://www.equipped.org/key_west_beacon_test_report.pdf
Rod1
Edited to add, for those who do not want to read the test in full.
You appear to have a 57% chance of the thing working at all if you are in the water!!!!!
I spoke with an old chum at the Belgrano today, who provided me with the relevant weblink. See http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/224/srg_ga...%20revised.pdf
Here is the amended requirement:
Scale KK
(i) A survival emergency locator transmitter capable of operating in accordance with the relevant provisions of ICAO Annex 10, Volume III and transmitting on 121.5 MHz and 406 MHz;
(ii) An automatic emergency locator transmitter capable of operating in accordance with the relevant provisions of ICAO Annex 10, Volume III and transmitting on 121.5 MHz and 406 MHz;
The McMurdo FastFind Plus would thus seem to meet the requirement. I will try to obtain confirmation of this.
Without an ELT, the 10 min 90 KIAS sectors for the south UK are:
So, to avoid the Golf Alfa Lunch At Letookay rat run, £480-ish for an ELT(S) isn't too bad. If my information is correct, I will probably buy one and hire it out as required to club members for a deposit and nominal fee.
Here is the amended requirement:
Scale KK
(i) A survival emergency locator transmitter capable of operating in accordance with the relevant provisions of ICAO Annex 10, Volume III and transmitting on 121.5 MHz and 406 MHz;
(ii) An automatic emergency locator transmitter capable of operating in accordance with the relevant provisions of ICAO Annex 10, Volume III and transmitting on 121.5 MHz and 406 MHz;
The McMurdo FastFind Plus would thus seem to meet the requirement. I will try to obtain confirmation of this.
Without an ELT, the 10 min 90 KIAS sectors for the south UK are:
So, to avoid the Golf Alfa Lunch At Letookay rat run, £480-ish for an ELT(S) isn't too bad. If my information is correct, I will probably buy one and hire it out as required to club members for a deposit and nominal fee.
Take another look!
(a) (ii) (aa) - (cc) apply only to IFR; however (a) (v) (bb) is not so restricted!
Mind you, the table seems almost designed to mislead!!
(a) (ii) (aa) - (cc) apply only to IFR; however (a) (v) (bb) is not so restricted!
Mind you, the table seems almost designed to mislead!!
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For those of us in the UK, I wouldn't worry too much about satellite pick-up times. Your 121.5 transmission will be picked-up almost instantaneously by the majority of civil overflights (you know the same guys who whinge about practice pans 
). Within second RCC Kinloss, D&D and MCGA would be slurping their last swig of coffee and starting to look for you.
). Within second RCC Kinloss, D&D and MCGA would be slurping their last swig of coffee and starting to look for you.
The McMurdo FastFind Plus would thus seem to meet the requirement.
The Original Whirly
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I've only skimmed this thread, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but....
You can hire an ELT from SEMS incredibly cheaply, which makes sense if you only make continental trips once a year or so.
You can hire an ELT from SEMS incredibly cheaply, which makes sense if you only make continental trips once a year or so.