Light aircraft down near Oban
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SoCal App, BOLLOCKS! It's bad enough that the authorities are going to force Mode S on private pilots without any more crap. If someone had a car crash in a remote region and wasn't found for 24 hours it would not cause a stir, why so different for aircraft? I don't imagine an ELT would have made much difference anyway in this case, but there is far too much legislation in general aviation as it is already. Also, can you imagine the amount of false alarms that would result if they were fitted to every light aircraft? Not well thought out, mate (unless you own a company making ELTs of course 
).
).
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ELT's would only be of use in remote areas such as the highlands of Scotland. Most light aircraft don't ever come up here, so ELT's would be complete overkill for the vast majority of the UK fleet.
I know the area around Oban well and that afternoon I wouldn't have been tempted to get airborne.
Another sad and most likely unnecessary event. R.I.P
I know the area around Oban well and that afternoon I wouldn't have been tempted to get airborne.
Another sad and most likely unnecessary event. R.I.P
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SoCal,
I think DB6's response to you was 'spot on' and I agree whole heartedly with him. As you have stated in the past, you are a Brit but now live in So Cal, so please, stop poking your nose in (a) about things here in general and (b) about remote bits of Scotland in particular.... i.e. Oban (I'm sure you know what I mean). And NO, we don't want more regulation.
TY.
I think DB6's response to you was 'spot on' and I agree whole heartedly with him. As you have stated in the past, you are a Brit but now live in So Cal, so please, stop poking your nose in (a) about things here in general and (b) about remote bits of Scotland in particular.... i.e. Oban (I'm sure you know what I mean). And NO, we don't want more regulation.
TY.
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Chris Royle
VFR Flight Plan only required in flying in Class C , entering/leaving a CTR, crossing the border to N.I. or flying across water i.e. U.K.
If you were flying say from Trim EITM / Abbbeyshrule EIAB lets say to Killkenny EIKL you would contact Dublin or Shannon and let them know you / what and where your going but no flight plan required.
sad news , i visited Oban last year and have to say its in a very beautiful part of the world.
When touring Southern Ireland last year and questioning why we had to file VFR flight plans, we were told that following a similar sort of accident to this had led to ALL flights in Southern Ireland require a flight plan.
VFR Flight Plan only required in flying in Class C , entering/leaving a CTR, crossing the border to N.I. or flying across water i.e. U.K.
If you were flying say from Trim EITM / Abbbeyshrule EIAB lets say to Killkenny EIKL you would contact Dublin or Shannon and let them know you / what and where your going but no flight plan required.
sad news , i visited Oban last year and have to say its in a very beautiful part of the world.
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Piper crash in West Scotland unnoticed for 24hrs
See:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...st/6543373.stm
I never realised flight plans were that important to your average private flights around the UK but these guys went totally unnoticed!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...st/6543373.stm
I never realised flight plans were that important to your average private flights around the UK but these guys went totally unnoticed!
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Further update from the BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...st/6543373.stm
RIP
RIP
Avoid imitations
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ELTs mandatory? Why? Are they crashproof? I think an ELT wouldn't survive a violent impact on a hillside.
VFR flightplans / flight following; As a helicopter pilot I operate from "off-airfield" locations much of the time (four different ones today) and so don't file written flight plans, even when forced to go IFR. Because of this I am diligent about keeping my operator informed about pax delays etc. The one day I don't turn up and don't make contact by phone or other means, I hope someone will become concerned and sound the alarm. I also make it a priority to get some sort of R/T contact with one agency or another and always state my POB (we had a discussion about this very subject a couple of years ago).
VFR flightplans / flight following; As a helicopter pilot I operate from "off-airfield" locations much of the time (four different ones today) and so don't file written flight plans, even when forced to go IFR. Because of this I am diligent about keeping my operator informed about pax delays etc. The one day I don't turn up and don't make contact by phone or other means, I hope someone will become concerned and sound the alarm. I also make it a priority to get some sort of R/T contact with one agency or another and always state my POB (we had a discussion about this very subject a couple of years ago).
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ELTs, compulsory flight plans, radio - give it a rest. We already have the beaurocracy nonsense of 'booking out' as a result of the Bentine crash eons ago.
If people want that sort of warm fuzzy strait jacket - fine, presumably when you can no longer talk to someone on the radio you'll do a 180 and return to 'safety'?
Some of us actually fly for the freedom (comparative!) and sights that it gives us. The scenery and remoteness of the NW of Scotland is a major lure for me. Why do I need all this crap?
If something bad happens then I'll have to cope with it (or not). Pretty much the same if I went there on a motorcycle or sailed there in my yacht. (pleanty of both of which have disappeared never to be found).
you want an ELT - buy one and I hope when it goes off without cause you get the bill. You want people to know where and when - tell them. but if you want people to come and look for you - expect the same sort of approach the French adopt - you pay for it.
You want to push the weather because of something 'important'- accept the consequences (which may or may not be what happened here).
The last thing we need is the nonsense kneejerk reaction that many posters are giving. Why not just support the GPS road pricing proposal - and insist it is extended to aircraft so no one will ever be untrackable......
If people want that sort of warm fuzzy strait jacket - fine, presumably when you can no longer talk to someone on the radio you'll do a 180 and return to 'safety'?
Some of us actually fly for the freedom (comparative!) and sights that it gives us. The scenery and remoteness of the NW of Scotland is a major lure for me. Why do I need all this crap?
If something bad happens then I'll have to cope with it (or not). Pretty much the same if I went there on a motorcycle or sailed there in my yacht. (pleanty of both of which have disappeared never to be found).
you want an ELT - buy one and I hope when it goes off without cause you get the bill. You want people to know where and when - tell them. but if you want people to come and look for you - expect the same sort of approach the French adopt - you pay for it.
You want to push the weather because of something 'important'- accept the consequences (which may or may not be what happened here).
The last thing we need is the nonsense kneejerk reaction that many posters are giving. Why not just support the GPS road pricing proposal - and insist it is extended to aircraft so no one will ever be untrackable......
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I would not like to see mandatory anything, however I would like to draw attention to this MAIB (marine accident investigation branch) report. The small sailing yacht Ouzo was sunk by a large ferry. The likelyhood is one of the crew survived over 12 hours in the channel before succumbing to the elements. They did not have an ELT, raft or a yachting equivalent of a flight plan.
The principles apply equally to recreational aircraft.
Everybody has choices to make and as an aircraft commander you make choices for your passengers as well because they dont have the skills and training to make those decisions for themselves.
Plenty of crashes are survivable and when your on a hillside with multiple injuries its a bit late to wish you had told someone when and where you were flying, infact you might regret it for the rest of your life.
The principles apply equally to recreational aircraft.
Everybody has choices to make and as an aircraft commander you make choices for your passengers as well because they dont have the skills and training to make those decisions for themselves.
Plenty of crashes are survivable and when your on a hillside with multiple injuries its a bit late to wish you had told someone when and where you were flying, infact you might regret it for the rest of your life.
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As Daysleeper has already said, there is a time and place for everything. When flying over a remote and/or mountainous terrain, then you should take extra precautions. An ELT/flight plan/responsible person at one end of the flight would be appropriate.
It's all just helping load the odds slighty further in your direction. Though sometimes nothing can help if you take liberties with the weather or terrain.
I wouldn't want to be forced to take anything other than by my own airmanship or common sense.
It's all just helping load the odds slighty further in your direction. Though sometimes nothing can help if you take liberties with the weather or terrain.
I wouldn't want to be forced to take anything other than by my own airmanship or common sense.
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So asking the original question, are there any circumstances in which an ELT is required?
In spite of my earlier comment I am not opposed to ELTs. The problem with regulations is usually if someone decides the carrying of an ELT is a good idea it simply ends up in indiscriminate legislation. In other words what will actually happen is all aircraft from microlights and gliders upwards will be required to carry an ELT and it will have to be a panel fit and it will have to be re-certified every year.
There are many aircraft that rarely do more than operate around the local area. There are few remotely desolate areas in the south of England these days!
There are also pilots who are prepared to cross channel without a life raft, life jackets, ELT etc. Personally imho that is their call, in the same way as some one else commented, you can go fell walking or mountain climbing or set sail across the channel without telling anyone and without any safety equipment. Stupid - probably, and if the RNLI find you be prepared to make a hansom donation. However, we don’t need any more regulations and we especially don’t need any more indiscriminate legislation. If a pilot is not intelligent enough to realise some or all of this equipment might be warranted in some circumstances and he decides not to carry it in my view that is his look out.
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No, there is no legal requirement to carry an ELT on European light aircraft - but of course you can if you wish.
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As of the 15th March 2007 there is now a legal requirement to carry an ELT if you are flying over water more that ten minutes cruising time away from land.
If anyone has a reference to the amending legislation in the ANO that would be very helpful.
It would mean a great many aircraft (including a lot of the rental fleet) will no longer be capable of going to France. If it is crusing time as contrasted with glide distance even L2K will be out.
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SoCal App, I can see how my robust reply to your earlier post might cause offence, so for that I apologise. That said I am very much against the attitude that demands blanket legislation in response to isolated incidents - I am sure you are aware of how UK GA currently staggers under the weight of **** heaped on it by JAR - so my point remains. What this incident will do, though, is highlight the precautions that may be taken (N.B. may, not must) to improve your chances and I'll bet there are a few more people making contact with Scottish Info than would have previously been the case.
I was aware of the 406 MHz thing but wasn't aware that had led to a significant drop in false activations - further research necessary on my part I think
.
Cheers DB6
I was aware of the 406 MHz thing but wasn't aware that had led to a significant drop in false activations - further research necessary on my part I think
.Cheers DB6
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I know this is a bit of thread drift so I'm sorry....
The 406MHZ thing AFAIK is not so much a case of less false activations of beacons than frequency clutter. Ie peoples toasters setting off the SARSATs. The other big benifit is 406 beacons are aircraft/person coded so each is associated with an owner who's info is on file and can be contacted rapidly to determine if it is an inadvertant activation. So you stil get the false activation but instead of sending a sea king you can phone the owner up... who then tells you his aircraft is in the hangar, end of search.
A good overview is at this US mil link.
The other benefit is Location Accuracy
406 MHz ELT W/GPS
Accuracy – .05 nm
Search Area – .008 sq nm
Search Area reduced by a factor of 45!
121.5 MHz ELT
Accuracy – 12 nm
Search Area – 452 sq nm
406.0 MHz ELT
Accuracy – 2 nm
Search Area – 13 sq nm
The 406MHZ thing AFAIK is not so much a case of less false activations of beacons than frequency clutter. Ie peoples toasters setting off the SARSATs. The other big benifit is 406 beacons are aircraft/person coded so each is associated with an owner who's info is on file and can be contacted rapidly to determine if it is an inadvertant activation. So you stil get the false activation but instead of sending a sea king you can phone the owner up... who then tells you his aircraft is in the hangar, end of search.
A good overview is at this US mil link.
The other benefit is Location Accuracy
406 MHz ELT W/GPS
Accuracy – .05 nm
Search Area – .008 sq nm
Search Area reduced by a factor of 45!
121.5 MHz ELT
Accuracy – 12 nm
Search Area – 452 sq nm
406.0 MHz ELT
Accuracy – 2 nm
Search Area – 13 sq nm
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Further research duly carried out; this http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/406vs121.pdf is also a good link on the 406/121.5 Mhz subject.