Seat belt repairs
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Seat belt repairs
Can anyone tell me what the legalities are in the Uk regarding repairing a damaged seat belt?
As I understand it it's a component that doesn't require a licensed engineer.
As I understand it it's a component that doesn't require a licensed engineer.
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Seat belts in racing cars are date stamped for renewal,and it is illegal to repair them.
I wouldn't bother to even try on an aircraft, a new belt is surely worth saving a life?
Lister
I wouldn't bother to even try on an aircraft, a new belt is surely worth saving a life?
Lister
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No date stamps on the belt in my racing car!
A repair simply means replacing the webbing (using a seat belt manufacturer) and the original buckles/fittings.
It certainly doesn't compromise safety, it's just a lot cheaper!
A repair simply means replacing the webbing (using a seat belt manufacturer) and the original buckles/fittings.
It certainly doesn't compromise safety, it's just a lot cheaper!
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The Luke harness in my single seater has a date stamp so did the Sabelts in my other car which I have just sold.
A six point full race harness is under £200,what is the point of saving a few pennies on this?
Lister
A six point full race harness is under £200,what is the point of saving a few pennies on this?
Lister
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Sorry to disappoint you but all parts on CofA aircraft have to be replaced with the approval of a licensed engineer unless stated otherwise in the ANO as pilot approved. On 'Public', then everything has to be done by an LAE.
As for the parts themselves (even seat belts) they have to be that which the aircraft was originally certified with - there will be a part number in the appropriate Parts Manual.
Piper PA28 lap straps are by AmSafe and cost about £60 per seat. The inertia reel shoulder harnesses are by Pacific Scientific and can be overhauled at their European branch in Maidenhead, Berks.
As for the parts themselves (even seat belts) they have to be that which the aircraft was originally certified with - there will be a part number in the appropriate Parts Manual.
Piper PA28 lap straps are by AmSafe and cost about £60 per seat. The inertia reel shoulder harnesses are by Pacific Scientific and can be overhauled at their European branch in Maidenhead, Berks.
When you posted this in the engineers section you were talking about owner maintenance. There is no owner maintenance on public transport aircraft.
Rewebbing a harness has to be carried out by an organisation so approved. An engineer can't reweb a harness. He can fit, remove and inspect. In some cases it is possible to replace certain fittings.
Any stitching is outside an engineers remit.
What has your maintenance organisation said about this proposal?
If a harness is repaired with webbing that is not from a controlled source then it becomes a bogus part.
Should it fail in an accident leading to a fatality the person responsible could be looking at a manslaughter charge.
I'd either have it repaired by an approved organisation or replaced.
I'm curious as to how you would get your maintenance people to sign up to this.
An engineers licence has become a valuable commodity, I certainly wouldn't risk mine to save a few quid on a seat harness. Nor would I risk a jail term.
We have had one licensed engineer jailed for failing to observe the rules.
I hope he is the last.
Just to muddy the waters a number of years ago the CAA admitted that car seat belt specs were higher than aircraft specs and I know of an installation on a public transport helicopter that was approved by the CAA which consisted of a 4 point Britax inertia reel car harness. However this was the subject of a modification and was therefore kosher. It would be cheaper to buy new harness than go through this process.!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rewebbing a harness has to be carried out by an organisation so approved. An engineer can't reweb a harness. He can fit, remove and inspect. In some cases it is possible to replace certain fittings.
Any stitching is outside an engineers remit.
What has your maintenance organisation said about this proposal?
If a harness is repaired with webbing that is not from a controlled source then it becomes a bogus part.
Should it fail in an accident leading to a fatality the person responsible could be looking at a manslaughter charge.
I'd either have it repaired by an approved organisation or replaced.
I'm curious as to how you would get your maintenance people to sign up to this.
An engineers licence has become a valuable commodity, I certainly wouldn't risk mine to save a few quid on a seat harness. Nor would I risk a jail term.
We have had one licensed engineer jailed for failing to observe the rules.
I hope he is the last.
Just to muddy the waters a number of years ago the CAA admitted that car seat belt specs were higher than aircraft specs and I know of an installation on a public transport helicopter that was approved by the CAA which consisted of a 4 point Britax inertia reel car harness. However this was the subject of a modification and was therefore kosher. It would be cheaper to buy new harness than go through this process.!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by ericferret; 28th Mar 2007 at 22:34. Reason: layoutspelling
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Thanks for the responses.
I didn't say that my engineer approved!
All I was trying to ascertain was what exactly the legal position was regarding seat belts.
I own a garage and we regularly send failed seat belts off to a specialist to be repaired. I am perfectly happy that this is a safe practice, otherwise I wouldn't allow it on my customer's vehicles.
I am also aware that nearly all parts on an aircraft have to be approved, I just want clarification BEFORE I speak to the engineering company who have been assigned the work.
I have no intention of compromising either legality or integrity, but IF I can comply with standards AND save a fair bit of money, then I will!
Nobody is trying to cheat anybody here!
I didn't say that my engineer approved!
All I was trying to ascertain was what exactly the legal position was regarding seat belts.
I own a garage and we regularly send failed seat belts off to a specialist to be repaired. I am perfectly happy that this is a safe practice, otherwise I wouldn't allow it on my customer's vehicles.
I am also aware that nearly all parts on an aircraft have to be approved, I just want clarification BEFORE I speak to the engineering company who have been assigned the work.
I have no intention of compromising either legality or integrity, but IF I can comply with standards AND save a fair bit of money, then I will!
Nobody is trying to cheat anybody here!
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Seat belts are a listed part. To give some credence to this look at the way it unlatches from the buckle. In the average "spam can" when you pull the release it releases at 45 degrees, because that is what the FAA require. When you next get on a UK airliner note that it doesn't release until 90 degrees, as that is what the CAA specify!
Given that these rules are in place for something as trivial as how to undo the buckle, I imagine that the rest of the belt is also subjuect to the usual maint. rules.
Given that these rules are in place for something as trivial as how to undo the buckle, I imagine that the rest of the belt is also subjuect to the usual maint. rules.
Stickandrudderman
You asked a very fair question and I hope I didn't infer that you were trying to break the rules. I was trying to point out the pitfalls from both the operators and the engineers positions.
The aircraft industry is no different to the car industry in that harnesses can be repaired by a specialist. The only difference is that the specialist has to be approved. That is the rub as the approval costs them money and they pass on that cost to the customer.
Engineers are very wary of owners who are under the impression that anything goes. A number of years ago a twin engined helicopter arrived for maintenance and was found to have a car phone installed. Further investigation showed that the owner had called in his local car phone installer who had drilled holes all over the structure to carry out this installation. He hadn't a clue about what pipework and cabling ran behind the panels. Very expensive to sort out.
A good relationship with a good maintenance organisation will get you the best deal. Failing that, it's get a PFA aircraft where you can do a lot more yourself.
You asked a very fair question and I hope I didn't infer that you were trying to break the rules. I was trying to point out the pitfalls from both the operators and the engineers positions.
The aircraft industry is no different to the car industry in that harnesses can be repaired by a specialist. The only difference is that the specialist has to be approved. That is the rub as the approval costs them money and they pass on that cost to the customer.
Engineers are very wary of owners who are under the impression that anything goes. A number of years ago a twin engined helicopter arrived for maintenance and was found to have a car phone installed. Further investigation showed that the owner had called in his local car phone installer who had drilled holes all over the structure to carry out this installation. He hadn't a clue about what pipework and cabling ran behind the panels. Very expensive to sort out.
A good relationship with a good maintenance organisation will get you the best deal. Failing that, it's get a PFA aircraft where you can do a lot more yourself.
It's also worth pointing out that a non aircraft repairer would not have access to the harness manufactures technical information or be aware of any mandatory airworthiness directives which applied.
The costs that can be involved are frustrating,
but where would we be without rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The costs that can be involved are frustrating,
but where would we be without rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Mr. Noble, If only we were talking about £200, I wouldn't have bothered posting the question!
I think I'll have to shoot the dog!
(now you know the full story!)
I think I'll have to shoot the dog!
(now you know the full story!)
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All excellent points ericferret - with no reference to the case in hand, it is amazing just how little some aircraft owners know about what they can and can't do. These days those of us with engineering licences have to be very careful about what we look after and sign for - after all it is us the Authorities come down on if anything is ever found to be amiss......
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As the discussion has strayed from the original question, if the aircraft had been on a PFA permit then;
Ask your inspector if he is happy with you using your usual supplier (very likely he would be)
Fill in a form and send it, along with £22.50 to the PFA.
Get a yes or no answer.
Fit the belts yourself and get your inspector to sign a maintenance release form. (Standard practice for work on a PFA machine)
The answer would almost certainly be yes, as my kit built aircraft has a raceing car produced belt as standard with the kit.
Rod1
Ask your inspector if he is happy with you using your usual supplier (very likely he would be)
Fill in a form and send it, along with £22.50 to the PFA.
Get a yes or no answer.
Fit the belts yourself and get your inspector to sign a maintenance release form. (Standard practice for work on a PFA machine)
The answer would almost certainly be yes, as my kit built aircraft has a raceing car produced belt as standard with the kit.
Rod1
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Just checked.
Luke 6 point full race harness FIA approved with 3" lap and shoulder straps-£127+vat
4 point-£116+vat
Not approved for aircraft but tested to much higher G forces,as I understand,
150mph to 0 in a couple of seconds when hitting a barrier,or tree as in hillclimbing!
Just interested in pricing,eg ,anything that says yacht automatically has a vast mark-up.
Please don't shoot the dog,send him out shopping.
Or buy him a sewing machine.
Luke 6 point full race harness FIA approved with 3" lap and shoulder straps-£127+vat
4 point-£116+vat
Not approved for aircraft but tested to much higher G forces,as I understand,
150mph to 0 in a couple of seconds when hitting a barrier,or tree as in hillclimbing!
Just interested in pricing,eg ,anything that says yacht automatically has a vast mark-up.
Please don't shoot the dog,send him out shopping.
Or buy him a sewing machine.
Just to digress a little further, but I cant resist the opportunity to tell this one.
About ten years ago we carried out an annual inspection on a high wing Cessna including a fairly large amount of work on the flying controls.
While showing another engineer round the hangars a week later we found the owner and his mate adjusting the flying controls. We never touched his aircraft again.
I also found out that he had a home made secondary battery installation which he used to remove before sending the aircraft in for maintenance and refit when he got the aircraft back. Apparently he though the standard Cessna system wasn't man enough.
I often wonder how we would have explained any of that to the CAA if the aircraft had piled in.
To be honest the stories above are one of the reasons why I moved away from G.A. Some aircraft owners just didn't seem to care if they put you or the company you worked for at risk.
Couple this with non payment of bills and the current climate of litigation which affects all walks of life and it was no longer worth it. A great shame as the work was enjoyable and the majority of aircraft owners were a delight to deal with.
About ten years ago we carried out an annual inspection on a high wing Cessna including a fairly large amount of work on the flying controls.
While showing another engineer round the hangars a week later we found the owner and his mate adjusting the flying controls. We never touched his aircraft again.
I also found out that he had a home made secondary battery installation which he used to remove before sending the aircraft in for maintenance and refit when he got the aircraft back. Apparently he though the standard Cessna system wasn't man enough.
I often wonder how we would have explained any of that to the CAA if the aircraft had piled in.
To be honest the stories above are one of the reasons why I moved away from G.A. Some aircraft owners just didn't seem to care if they put you or the company you worked for at risk.
Couple this with non payment of bills and the current climate of litigation which affects all walks of life and it was no longer worth it. A great shame as the work was enjoyable and the majority of aircraft owners were a delight to deal with.
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
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Originally Posted by Lister Noble
Just checked.
Luke 6 point full race harness FIA approved with 3" lap and shoulder straps-£127+vat
4 point-£116+vat
Not approved for aircraft but tested to much higher G forces,as I understand,
150mph to 0 in a couple of seconds when hitting a barrier,or tree as in hillclimbing!
Luke 6 point full race harness FIA approved with 3" lap and shoulder straps-£127+vat
4 point-£116+vat
Not approved for aircraft but tested to much higher G forces,as I understand,
150mph to 0 in a couple of seconds when hitting a barrier,or tree as in hillclimbing!
They did look very nice though.
Have Hooker Harnesses in the Yak & the Pitts (and the ones in the
Yak came out of the Extra 300 I've punted around a bit) and frankly,
if you're going to push any form of negative G then it's a Hooker or
nothing.....
