Kent Plane Crash - Aborted Take off
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Regardless of what the home-censor brigade may want you to think, 'speculation' is, for the involved parties, a very important part of grieving and coming to terms with the situation. The Americans call it closure.
Some people will see the picture on the Kentonline website and ask themselves if the flaps were set to take-off position (which isn't clear but they don't appear to be) and cringe knowing that they got away with it when they did exactly the same thing.
Some people will see the picture on the Kentonline website and ask themselves if the flaps were set to take-off position (which isn't clear but they don't appear to be) and cringe knowing that they got away with it when they did exactly the same thing.
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Very sad
I flew with Steve and shared a flat with him at Anglo, we become very good friends. I cannot recall any one event right now, I am too upset - however he was a great laugh, brilliant cook and loved flying.
He always amazed me with little bits of aviation trivia, in particular about military aviation and as a ex naval aviator he caught me out a few times.
He was a great friend to my family, and to all his worldwide circle of friends. RIP my friend I will miss your advice and companionship.
I will always have a pint of London Pride for you back in blighty.
Shippers
He always amazed me with little bits of aviation trivia, in particular about military aviation and as a ex naval aviator he caught me out a few times.
He was a great friend to my family, and to all his worldwide circle of friends. RIP my friend I will miss your advice and companionship.
I will always have a pint of London Pride for you back in blighty.
Shippers
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IMHO a technical discussion of accidents is worthwhile.
The AAIB report does come out .... eventually ... but more often than not it is mostly speculation, especially in accidents (not this one) where there were no survivors. They do dress it up in formal language, but if you read between the lines you can tell they don't really know. No FDR, no CVR...
The AAIB report does come out .... eventually ... but more often than not it is mostly speculation, especially in accidents (not this one) where there were no survivors. They do dress it up in formal language, but if you read between the lines you can tell they don't really know. No FDR, no CVR...
The Original Whirly
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I would prefer 'accidents' were not reported in this thread - unless solely for the purpose of condolences by those who knew the deceased.
This particular argument comes up again and again on here whenever an accident happens. We are all different, and we all have different feelings about what should or should not be posted on the Professional Pilots' RUMOUR Network.
Personally, the only thing I object to is others telling me what I should or should not post. But there you are, maybe I too need to learn tolerance and acceptance.
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The right to Question.
I agree with W'bird here & there has been no speculation that I have seen. Most I imagine - like me - simply wish to try & understand what could have happened.
It is a tragedy and nobody so far has suggested that the pilot was anything but a good guy in all respects. Anyone who's been in a similar position will know that it could have been them & so of course we want to try & understand. When we have exhausted all the facts that are available - like for example it was runway 22 - then the picture will be as clear as it can be untill the AAIB report appears.
It was a long while ago but I was based at Headcone in the '80s flying the Seneca on daily trips all year round and winter there, it did present some challenges. The reason I have particular interest in this accident - apart from the human issues - is that I too rejected a take off following a hefty brid strike, a seagull in one prop - and only just got away with it before crossing the main road. So I was on the long runway.
OK a different aeroplane on a different day but I can't help identify with this poor sod who did not walk away afterwards. What I learned was that even with an awful lot of runway in fron of you, if it is muddy and wet it will take one hell of a long way before you can stop. I too was then a CPL with lots of experience but still got a shock at how much road I needed. Time is not on your side with such decisions.
A tail dragger has an additional handicap when it comes to stopping as it can nose over and any TD pilot will have that in mind when consdiering the STOP option. It is an additional pressure.
Reliable performance calcs are simply not available for those conditions if a runway is muddy and wet.
What someone more connected to HCN may be able to answer is this. Why were they using 22, rather than the longer runway? A cross wind doesn't seem a likely reason as jumpers don't jump in high wind do they? Well maybe they do now & maybe the Beaver has a v low X'wind limit but i am interested to understand -NOT speculate OK?
It is a tragedy and nobody so far has suggested that the pilot was anything but a good guy in all respects. Anyone who's been in a similar position will know that it could have been them & so of course we want to try & understand. When we have exhausted all the facts that are available - like for example it was runway 22 - then the picture will be as clear as it can be untill the AAIB report appears.
It was a long while ago but I was based at Headcone in the '80s flying the Seneca on daily trips all year round and winter there, it did present some challenges. The reason I have particular interest in this accident - apart from the human issues - is that I too rejected a take off following a hefty brid strike, a seagull in one prop - and only just got away with it before crossing the main road. So I was on the long runway.
OK a different aeroplane on a different day but I can't help identify with this poor sod who did not walk away afterwards. What I learned was that even with an awful lot of runway in fron of you, if it is muddy and wet it will take one hell of a long way before you can stop. I too was then a CPL with lots of experience but still got a shock at how much road I needed. Time is not on your side with such decisions.
A tail dragger has an additional handicap when it comes to stopping as it can nose over and any TD pilot will have that in mind when consdiering the STOP option. It is an additional pressure.
Reliable performance calcs are simply not available for those conditions if a runway is muddy and wet.
What someone more connected to HCN may be able to answer is this. Why were they using 22, rather than the longer runway? A cross wind doesn't seem a likely reason as jumpers don't jump in high wind do they? Well maybe they do now & maybe the Beaver has a v low X'wind limit but i am interested to understand -NOT speculate OK?
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As you may have gathered, I know the Beaver and the airfield though I have never used runway 22.
The Beaver's max demonstrated crosswind is 15kt but the book recommends 13kt to be safe under normal operating procedures.
The flap setting for take.off is 35 degrees and the prop wound back to reduce noise. The prop has to be in fully fine for reverse to be available.
In the reports I have seen the flaps appear to be fully up. In this condition, you'd have to be doing about 100mph before you would be able to drag it off the ground main wheels first. Or be quick enough to realize and pump them down, at which she leaps into the air.
Naturally, my sympathies go out to the bereaved.
The Beaver's max demonstrated crosswind is 15kt but the book recommends 13kt to be safe under normal operating procedures.
The flap setting for take.off is 35 degrees and the prop wound back to reduce noise. The prop has to be in fully fine for reverse to be available.
In the reports I have seen the flaps appear to be fully up. In this condition, you'd have to be doing about 100mph before you would be able to drag it off the ground main wheels first. Or be quick enough to realize and pump them down, at which she leaps into the air.
Naturally, my sympathies go out to the bereaved.
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"Facts" based on pure speculation.
So many people with an opinion that is worth squat.
The "human nature aspect" is sadly one of 'rubberneckers' who just want to voice their expertise and opinion - or show some photos of the accident/wreckage.
Leave it to the experts in the AAIB who will determine the facts. Facts which will not offend.
Speculation on the other hand - is offensive.
I am entirely with Chuffer Dandridge on this one.
I would prefer 'accidents' were not reported in this thread - unless solely for the purpose of condolences by those who knew the deceased.
So many people with an opinion that is worth squat.
The "human nature aspect" is sadly one of 'rubberneckers' who just want to voice their expertise and opinion - or show some photos of the accident/wreckage.
Leave it to the experts in the AAIB who will determine the facts. Facts which will not offend.
Speculation on the other hand - is offensive.
I am entirely with Chuffer Dandridge on this one.
I would prefer 'accidents' were not reported in this thread - unless solely for the purpose of condolences by those who knew the deceased.
I respect your opinion. Your posts are normally very well thought out, and informative.
But you have been around here long enough to realise that we have had this debate many times. People wish to learn from these incidents, so that they can avoid the same mistakes themselves. Often the mistakes that they learn are not ones that anyone accuses the pilot of making, but rather ones that come up as part of the discussion. By the time the AAIB report comes out, they have forgotten about the incident, and it is less likely to make an impact on us. As such we are less likely to learn from it.
Anyway, we have had this discussion numerous times now, and there is sufficient people who wish to learn from these incidents, that they will not stop posting. If you don't like to read such posts, then it's best you don't read such threads.
Misterlou,
Don't read too much into the flap position. The pilot may very well have raised the flaps when he aborted the takeoff, to help put weight onto the wheels, and help increase the effect of the brakes.
dp
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Miserlou,
We obviously both know this airfield and aeroplane intimately. Therefore quite surprised at this:
Not only did I fly the subject aircraft on the day, indeed flew with the pilot involved as well, but also remarked on how dry the runway used appeared.....which, due to a lack of recent use, was actually a better surface condition than the rest of the airfield.
I take it you were also there and used the runway in question???, which would explain your knowledge of the conditions...?
Rumour network yes, utter uninformned bolleaux you heard from a mate's brother, definately not
Please show some respect for the poor chap and his family and keep your opinions to yourself
We obviously both know this airfield and aeroplane intimately. Therefore quite surprised at this:
The runway in use was 550 metres of soggy grass.
I take it you were also there and used the runway in question???, which would explain your knowledge of the conditions...?
Rumour network yes, utter uninformned bolleaux you heard from a mate's brother, definately not
Please show some respect for the poor chap and his family and keep your opinions to yourself
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DP, (how rare it to use those letters in polite conversation).
The most reliable and effective source of braking with this aircraft is the propeller; it can taxi backwards.
To retract the flaps would mean taking your hand from the power lever thus losing the reverse, then moving the flap direction selector to up and then pumping the hydraulic hand pump.
Combined with the wet, muddy grass, high c of g taildragger, it is a less likely scenario.
As stated earlier, the lack of TO flap setting would prevent the aircraft from getting airbourne.
The most reliable and effective source of braking with this aircraft is the propeller; it can taxi backwards.
To retract the flaps would mean taking your hand from the power lever thus losing the reverse, then moving the flap direction selector to up and then pumping the hydraulic hand pump.
Combined with the wet, muddy grass, high c of g taildragger, it is a less likely scenario.
As stated earlier, the lack of TO flap setting would prevent the aircraft from getting airbourne.
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In my early years of flying, when I flew with some of the national team members in rally flying they were using very interesting technique for short field take-offs.
You accelerate without any flaps or anything and as you approach your lift of speed you put the flaps down, Steve could have been suing this technique as well.
I knew Steve pretty well and we'll all miss him.
You accelerate without any flaps or anything and as you approach your lift of speed you put the flaps down, Steve could have been suing this technique as well.
I knew Steve pretty well and we'll all miss him.
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Dave,
Sorry, I see this may have been taken out of context.
I do know some-one who was intending to fly from that runway a couple of hours before the accident and was briefed about the soggy conditions. Soggy is not a term which holds any weight in terms of performance corrections like wet grass, dry snow, slush etc.
I mention the runway surface only to show that the book take off data on dry concrete would NOT reflect the actual runway conditions.
My apologies, once again.
From an earlier post, "and cringe knowing that they got away with it when they did exactly the same thing."
I have every respect for the pilot. I guess this is one of those filling the experience bucket before the luck one runs out.
Sorry, I see this may have been taken out of context.
I do know some-one who was intending to fly from that runway a couple of hours before the accident and was briefed about the soggy conditions. Soggy is not a term which holds any weight in terms of performance corrections like wet grass, dry snow, slush etc.
I mention the runway surface only to show that the book take off data on dry concrete would NOT reflect the actual runway conditions.
My apologies, once again.
From an earlier post, "and cringe knowing that they got away with it when they did exactly the same thing."
I have every respect for the pilot. I guess this is one of those filling the experience bucket before the luck one runs out.
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Does anybody know what the wind was at the time?
OC619
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The problem is the AAIB report will take months, if not year to be released. IN the meantime if our speculating manages to make one pilot think twice about something, or reinforces a "gut" feeling or even saves someones life, then it is worth it.
FWIW I think that the more speculation takes place, the closer to the truth the speculation eventually ends up. There may be many people with snippets of information which when they are all put together show the bigger picture........
FWIW I think that the more speculation takes place, the closer to the truth the speculation eventually ends up. There may be many people with snippets of information which when they are all put together show the bigger picture........
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The problem is the AAIB report will take months, if not year to be released. IN the meantime if our speculating manages to make one pilot think twice about something, or reinforces a "gut" feeling or even saves someones life, then it is worth it.
Not wanting to sound flippant, but off any other runway the incident would have maybe resulted in cuts and bruises, 22 ends with an F-100.
Didnt think 04/22 was licensed.
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I knew Steve for a few years on and off and it is sad news.
Sorry to say it but now I know the meaning of :There are bold pilots and there are old pilots but there are no old, bold pilots.
RIP.
Sorry to say it but now I know the meaning of :There are bold pilots and there are old pilots but there are no old, bold pilots.
RIP.
Educated Hillbilly
I last spoke with Steve just before christmas, I can't claim to have known him as well as some that have posted here (Itchy Kitchen), but when we last spoke we had agreed to meet in London for a drink, my biggest regret in life will be not arranging that drink sooner.
All respect to SD.
PHF
All respect to SD.
PHF
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And believe, me there are some that will jump winds approaching that !! And not nice for us pilots if that ends up being a full crosswind component !!
Back to thread, I think it is useful having to read the stuff on this thread. As others have mentioned, if it makes you think twice about certain things, then it will hopefully prevent other tragedies ! Believe me, been there, done that ! Also, organisations like the AAIB will make their report using statements and information given by witnesses.
In the meantime, my thoughts to go the pilot, his family and friends.
CG.
Back to thread, I think it is useful having to read the stuff on this thread. As others have mentioned, if it makes you think twice about certain things, then it will hopefully prevent other tragedies ! Believe me, been there, done that ! Also, organisations like the AAIB will make their report using statements and information given by witnesses.
In the meantime, my thoughts to go the pilot, his family and friends.
CG.