Eclipse, all going pear shaped
IO540 said' What they have done is really no different etc'
Remember Jim Bede and the BD5 series of aircraft? Lots of people in the UK put down deposits; how many are flying in the UK?
Remember Jim Bede and the BD5 series of aircraft? Lots of people in the UK put down deposits; how many are flying in the UK?
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As for the TBM 850, it is a beautiful aircraft with a well shaken down airframe BUT has half the svc ceiling and costs twice as much. You will still be flying through a lot of the Wx that the Eclipse will be going over the top of.
Not sure about "half" the ceiling, SB
The 850 does about 30,000ft. Only the Concorde, or mil jets, could double that.
I have no axe to grind because a) I am happy with my TB20; b) cannot afford a turboprop anyway (other than some really knackered Meridian with bicycle tube patches all over the rubber boots); c) wouldn't buy a TBM anyway, preferring something much slicker like the Epic.
But a 30k ceiling gets you above all stratus, above just about everything except CBs, you can avoid embedded CBs because you have radar, and only a 50k+ ceiling will get you above turbulence. In terms of clinical mission capability (the go / no-go decision) I don't see much difference between 30k and 40k-45k.
And neither has the ~500kt TAS to get you airliner-type upper airway routes.
The jets will definitely sell, but I reckon 1/10 to 1/5 of the figures banded about. Especially as a lot of the sales are based on US air taxi fleet purchase projections, which don't add up if you allow for six fat Americans turning up with their golf clubs. Or six fat Europeans for that matter; the Brits and Germans are not far behind.
Not sure about "half" the ceiling, SB
The 850 does about 30,000ft. Only the Concorde, or mil jets, could double that.
I have no axe to grind because a) I am happy with my TB20; b) cannot afford a turboprop anyway (other than some really knackered Meridian with bicycle tube patches all over the rubber boots); c) wouldn't buy a TBM anyway, preferring something much slicker like the Epic.
But a 30k ceiling gets you above all stratus, above just about everything except CBs, you can avoid embedded CBs because you have radar, and only a 50k+ ceiling will get you above turbulence. In terms of clinical mission capability (the go / no-go decision) I don't see much difference between 30k and 40k-45k.
And neither has the ~500kt TAS to get you airliner-type upper airway routes.
The jets will definitely sell, but I reckon 1/10 to 1/5 of the figures banded about. Especially as a lot of the sales are based on US air taxi fleet purchase projections, which don't add up if you allow for six fat Americans turning up with their golf clubs. Or six fat Europeans for that matter; the Brits and Germans are not far behind.
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Bill Gates
'Ugly stupid Bill Gates'...
Fact is, whatever you might think of him, he is wedged up sufficiently to throw a few dollars at his lawyer, who might then in turn require a few quid off you for defamation, internet forum or otherwise.
I'd quietly withdraw that one IIWY. American Judges have a habit of saying 'take out your wallet and repeat after me 'help yourself'... plus my bank account, my house and my shoes.'
Don't answer the door or the phone.......
HP
Fact is, whatever you might think of him, he is wedged up sufficiently to throw a few dollars at his lawyer, who might then in turn require a few quid off you for defamation, internet forum or otherwise.
I'd quietly withdraw that one IIWY. American Judges have a habit of saying 'take out your wallet and repeat after me 'help yourself'... plus my bank account, my house and my shoes.'
Don't answer the door or the phone.......
HP
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Dude, i don't know were you are comming from, but on my planet this is plain crap you are trying to sell. Also i guess you haven't been eating a lot of law books in your life, you're just full of sh*t.
I would love to argue with bill gates and confront him with the lies and copies he have been doing since more than 20 years now, but i guess that is another thread, do some google on 'bill gates' and 'copies mac'
Also you can bet that i also have some dollars to throw to him, but who cares. In fact, i think you are a funny guy.
On the part of the eclipse plane, i see a market for it, in fact i belong to that markt, in my country one person had payed for 10 eclipse planes, i don't see somebody doing that without having some founded market research/descision.
I would love to argue with bill gates and confront him with the lies and copies he have been doing since more than 20 years now, but i guess that is another thread, do some google on 'bill gates' and 'copies mac'
Also you can bet that i also have some dollars to throw to him, but who cares. In fact, i think you are a funny guy.
On the part of the eclipse plane, i see a market for it, in fact i belong to that markt, in my country one person had payed for 10 eclipse planes, i don't see somebody doing that without having some founded market research/descision.
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Not sure about "half" the ceiling, SB
OK, OK, well 3/4 ish then
but the fronts that we mere mortals end up ploughing through below 25000ft can often have tops between 30,000 and 40,000 ft.
Thge Epic looks fantastic - an American colleague of mine has a deposit down for one.
Let's hope Eclipse can set things straight,
SB
OK, OK, well 3/4 ish then
but the fronts that we mere mortals end up ploughing through below 25000ft can often have tops between 30,000 and 40,000 ft.Thge Epic looks fantastic - an American colleague of mine has a deposit down for one.
Let's hope Eclipse can set things straight,
SB
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IO540 is right about the Eclipse not getting to its optimum level for weather avoidance / fuel burn. It flies at almost the same speed as the Citation ii. You will have two hopes of getting past FL200, especially in France doing .62 / .64 :
1. Bob Hope
2. No hope !
You will still be flying much faster than the turboprop, but don't try stretching the range thinking that you will be at FL300 by the time that you are crossing northern France, cos it will not happen.
1. Bob Hope
2. No hope !
You will still be flying much faster than the turboprop, but don't try stretching the range thinking that you will be at FL300 by the time that you are crossing northern France, cos it will not happen.
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Bill Gates
Hi Sternone,
You are an aggressive guy. My post was tongue in cheek and might ordinarily have raised a titter but I suppose you would've needed a sense of humour at some stage to have suffered a recent failure of it.
Trading insults isn't my bag at all.
Are you short BTW?
Just a theory.................
HP
You are an aggressive guy. My post was tongue in cheek and might ordinarily have raised a titter but I suppose you would've needed a sense of humour at some stage to have suffered a recent failure of it.
Trading insults isn't my bag at all.
Are you short BTW?
Just a theory.................
HP
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cjboy, you can get all the airways clearances you like on the ground, but the chances of being cleared to climb to even FL250 is unlikely whilst under control of particularly the French.
I flew the c550/ 560 five years ago. the 560 was fine cruising at .73 but exchanges with A.T.C. in the 550 almost always went like this:
" G-AB requesting climb "
" G-AB what will your speed be at ( say ) FL250 ? "
" ERR. .62 "
" Roger G-AB, maintain FL200 for the cruise " !!
There of plenty of places in Europe where you will get to Fl300, no problem but in busy airspace you simply can't get in the way of other aircraft flying much faster.
I flew the c550/ 560 five years ago. the 560 was fine cruising at .73 but exchanges with A.T.C. in the 550 almost always went like this:
" G-AB requesting climb "
" G-AB what will your speed be at ( say ) FL250 ? "
" ERR. .62 "
" Roger G-AB, maintain FL200 for the cruise " !!
There of plenty of places in Europe where you will get to Fl300, no problem but in busy airspace you simply can't get in the way of other aircraft flying much faster.
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a4fly - sorry, but you're talking rubbish
I fly a Citation II (not a Bravo) and normally return from the South of France at FL360 or FL380. It's not a problem, the French Upper Air Guys are perfectly capable of handling it. If we have an overtake situation they turn us both out 10 degrees and the guy doing M .74 against our M .63 overtakes.
I fly a Citation II (not a Bravo) and normally return from the South of France at FL360 or FL380. It's not a problem, the French Upper Air Guys are perfectly capable of handling it. If we have an overtake situation they turn us both out 10 degrees and the guy doing M .74 against our M .63 overtakes.
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Informed opinion from the USA (which I cannot speak for myself) suggests that the lower speed of the Eclipse will affect upper airway routings over there.
As regards the report above from flying to/from southern France, I should say there is far less traffic down there than going generally east of the UK i.e. Belgium / Germany / Czech etc. Most French airports are pretty dead. The difference is even evident from the ease of working out Eurocontrol-acceptable airway routes: most autorouted Flitestar routes go straight through, but there is not a chance in hell of making them work straight off if going to the east. I've even had routes to Biarritz etc work straight off the paper charts, which is almost unheard of, from pilots who do not have access to the "inside" of the ATC system.
As regards the report above from flying to/from southern France, I should say there is far less traffic down there than going generally east of the UK i.e. Belgium / Germany / Czech etc. Most French airports are pretty dead. The difference is even evident from the ease of working out Eurocontrol-acceptable airway routes: most autorouted Flitestar routes go straight through, but there is not a chance in hell of making them work straight off if going to the east. I've even had routes to Biarritz etc work straight off the paper charts, which is almost unheard of, from pilots who do not have access to the "inside" of the ATC system.
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Oh dear,
I would never suggest that anybody was talking rubbish whilst recounting their experiences, unless I had flown with them during 100% of their flying career. You haven't, so please don't.
It was several years ago (sometimes pre-R.V.S.M.) that I flew the 550 down to the South of France; so perhaps my climb was held at FL250, not FL200 and maybe the French now move you over so that others can overtake, but I can assure you that on numerous occasions our climbs were severely cut short because of our speed. This happened only in France. Fact not fiction. If it's changed now, then good although since aircraft are getting faster, not slower I would be very surprised if pilots of the older Citations are not coming up against this situation on a regular basis.
Anyway, the reason for my original remarks regarding curtailed climb clearances were in the context of this thread. Many potential buyers of the Eclipse will be private owners. It would be a shame if any of them purchased one on the basis of a predicted fuel burn plan on a flight that they were doing regularly, only to find that they were not able to climb to FL380 (or whatever) in some ultra short time, because French A.T.C. held them at a lower level because of their slow speed.
I would never suggest that anybody was talking rubbish whilst recounting their experiences, unless I had flown with them during 100% of their flying career. You haven't, so please don't.
It was several years ago (sometimes pre-R.V.S.M.) that I flew the 550 down to the South of France; so perhaps my climb was held at FL250, not FL200 and maybe the French now move you over so that others can overtake, but I can assure you that on numerous occasions our climbs were severely cut short because of our speed. This happened only in France. Fact not fiction. If it's changed now, then good although since aircraft are getting faster, not slower I would be very surprised if pilots of the older Citations are not coming up against this situation on a regular basis.
Anyway, the reason for my original remarks regarding curtailed climb clearances were in the context of this thread. Many potential buyers of the Eclipse will be private owners. It would be a shame if any of them purchased one on the basis of a predicted fuel burn plan on a flight that they were doing regularly, only to find that they were not able to climb to FL380 (or whatever) in some ultra short time, because French A.T.C. held them at a lower level because of their slow speed.
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I would never suggest that anybody was talking rubbish whilst recounting their experiences, unless I had flown with them during 100% of their flying career. You haven't, so please don't.
I would be very surprised if pilots of the older Citations are not coming up against this situation on a regular basis.
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PC12 at FL280 in France
I didn't realise that this was a problem. I regularly flew a PC12 in French Air Space (Paris/Nice from/to the UK) - up to FL270/FL280 - with no problems. That's at 250 TAS. (between July 2005 and Oct 2006).
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GDSD
You wouldn't at those levels - it's FL300 plus where the speed differentials are that we're talking about (Airliners V light jets).
Below FL300 the cruising levels tend to be occupied by aircraft of a similar speed group. (PC12, BE200, ATR's etc)
You wouldn't at those levels - it's FL300 plus where the speed differentials are that we're talking about (Airliners V light jets).
Below FL300 the cruising levels tend to be occupied by aircraft of a similar speed group. (PC12, BE200, ATR's etc)
