Mode S petition at No 10
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MM, You must fly in a very different part of the world to me. Most PPL’s fly at the weekend, so almost no military traffic and almost no LARS.
“People with Mode C/S are much less likely to be involved in an airprox or an infringement that has real safety risk”
The chances of me meeting anything other than another GA aircraft at 2000 ft on a Saturday in the open FIR are zero.
“It is true that transponders don't address the risk of two VFR aircraft not receiving a service colliding with each other - but both of those aircraft have made the choice to not avail themselves of any assistance from ATC or technology.”
What ATC assistance? I can just about squeeze a flight information service, if I am lucky, from say East Mids, but on a busy Saturday there is no LARS for 90% of the UK and even EMA will often tell you to standby for so long you are out of the area by the time you get a response, which is of very limited value for collision avoidance. I would have no problem with carrying mode c or even mode s if it had any benefit whatsoever, but it does not. I accept that the IR pilots will gain benefit, but VFR outside controlled airspace which is 95% of that most PPL’s do, it has no value.
Rod1
“People with Mode C/S are much less likely to be involved in an airprox or an infringement that has real safety risk”
The chances of me meeting anything other than another GA aircraft at 2000 ft on a Saturday in the open FIR are zero.
“It is true that transponders don't address the risk of two VFR aircraft not receiving a service colliding with each other - but both of those aircraft have made the choice to not avail themselves of any assistance from ATC or technology.”
What ATC assistance? I can just about squeeze a flight information service, if I am lucky, from say East Mids, but on a busy Saturday there is no LARS for 90% of the UK and even EMA will often tell you to standby for so long you are out of the area by the time you get a response, which is of very limited value for collision avoidance. I would have no problem with carrying mode c or even mode s if it had any benefit whatsoever, but it does not. I accept that the IR pilots will gain benefit, but VFR outside controlled airspace which is 95% of that most PPL’s do, it has no value.
Rod1
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Rod1,
Flying in the SE I generally find I can get something out of ATC, if I ask. Could it be a lot better? - of course, but ATC can also provide a lot better information with less work if they are calling relevant mode c traffic vs various mode A and non-transponding possible targets.
For people who fly in the truely open FIR off grass fields no where near controlled airspace then the value of a transponder is low - but I would have thought these people are not going to have invested very much in avionics (1 radio and a hand held GPS maybe) given that they are not going to be going very far - and my arguement for installing Mode C isn't directed at this type of flying. Once you plan on going somewhere you are going to be mixing with people who are getting a service and are carrying technology to detect you (even if it is very basic with just a range, relative altitude and maybe rough bearing)
Flying in the SE I generally find I can get something out of ATC, if I ask. Could it be a lot better? - of course, but ATC can also provide a lot better information with less work if they are calling relevant mode c traffic vs various mode A and non-transponding possible targets.
For people who fly in the truely open FIR off grass fields no where near controlled airspace then the value of a transponder is low - but I would have thought these people are not going to have invested very much in avionics (1 radio and a hand held GPS maybe) given that they are not going to be going very far - and my arguement for installing Mode C isn't directed at this type of flying. Once you plan on going somewhere you are going to be mixing with people who are getting a service and are carrying technology to detect you (even if it is very basic with just a range, relative altitude and maybe rough bearing)
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MM
I think you are underestimating the PFA flyers. Over 1000 of them do not have a radio let alone a transponder, but regular trips the length of the country are flown using traditional navigation. The infringement profile for such aircraft is better than the average club spamcan, according to the PFA, and most do remain well clear of CAS. There was an article about an open cockpit single seater which was flown from the north of Scotland to Kemble with maps, stopwatch and a hand held radio, which is just one example. The BMAA members do similar trips in similar aircraft.
I had an aerobatic single seater for a while, it had no electrical system and flying it around relying using traditional navigation techniques was huge fun and surprisingly accurate.
The CAA proposal was for all aircraft to be fitted with mode S. Work done by the PFA on the likely range of a LAST style device in the cockpit of a typical PFA aircraft using an internal aerial showed the range for reliable detection was very very low and the radiation levels for the pilot to be above EU HAS regs. The result of this work is that large numbers of aircraft will gain exemptions, others, hopefully, will be allowed to carry on with mode c, and some will have to fit mode s.
The CAA have announced that another consultation is to be carried out, so the implementation dates are likely to slip, even if you do end up in a group which has to fit one.
Rod1
I think you are underestimating the PFA flyers. Over 1000 of them do not have a radio let alone a transponder, but regular trips the length of the country are flown using traditional navigation. The infringement profile for such aircraft is better than the average club spamcan, according to the PFA, and most do remain well clear of CAS. There was an article about an open cockpit single seater which was flown from the north of Scotland to Kemble with maps, stopwatch and a hand held radio, which is just one example. The BMAA members do similar trips in similar aircraft.
I had an aerobatic single seater for a while, it had no electrical system and flying it around relying using traditional navigation techniques was huge fun and surprisingly accurate.
The CAA proposal was for all aircraft to be fitted with mode S. Work done by the PFA on the likely range of a LAST style device in the cockpit of a typical PFA aircraft using an internal aerial showed the range for reliable detection was very very low and the radiation levels for the pilot to be above EU HAS regs. The result of this work is that large numbers of aircraft will gain exemptions, others, hopefully, will be allowed to carry on with mode c, and some will have to fit mode s.
The CAA have announced that another consultation is to be carried out, so the implementation dates are likely to slip, even if you do end up in a group which has to fit one.
Rod1
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If, for argument's sake, there are these exemptions from compulsory Mode S (or any transponder for that matter), will that not be a bit of a hollow victory once N/K/U becomes reality?
The BGA have had to accept the change to FL195 and above becoming "C", and have I assume gained some dispensation in areas where they routinely use airspace above FL195.
It is unrealistic to believe that the "south-east of England"* will ever be anything other then N or K, probably from the ground up (or at "best" using the Netherlands model of 1200' and upwards) [NB The Netherlands model is never mentioned in the PFA document: Only France and their laissez faire attitude to regulations
]
No transponder, no entry to N or K.
* south-east of England would encompass an awful lot of airspace, certainly larger (and lower) than the existing (L)TMA.
IMHO there's an awful lot of intelligent people spending a lot of time arguing about the inevitable...
The BGA have had to accept the change to FL195 and above becoming "C", and have I assume gained some dispensation in areas where they routinely use airspace above FL195.
It is unrealistic to believe that the "south-east of England"* will ever be anything other then N or K, probably from the ground up (or at "best" using the Netherlands model of 1200' and upwards) [NB The Netherlands model is never mentioned in the PFA document: Only France and their laissez faire attitude to regulations
]No transponder, no entry to N or K.
* south-east of England would encompass an awful lot of airspace, certainly larger (and lower) than the existing (L)TMA.
IMHO there's an awful lot of intelligent people spending a lot of time arguing about the inevitable...
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MM
I think you are underestimating the PFA flyers. Over 1000 of them do not have a radio let alone a transponder, but regular trips the length of the country are flown using traditional navigation. The infringement profile for such aircraft is better than the average club spamcan, according to the PFA, and most do remain well clear of CAS. There was an article about an open cockpit single seater which was flown from the north of Scotland to Kemble with maps, stopwatch and a hand held radio, which is just one example. The BMAA members do similar trips in similar aircraft.
I think you are underestimating the PFA flyers. Over 1000 of them do not have a radio let alone a transponder, but regular trips the length of the country are flown using traditional navigation. The infringement profile for such aircraft is better than the average club spamcan, according to the PFA, and most do remain well clear of CAS. There was an article about an open cockpit single seater which was flown from the north of Scotland to Kemble with maps, stopwatch and a hand held radio, which is just one example. The BMAA members do similar trips in similar aircraft.
Rustle,
While I broadly agree with your point, I doubt mandatory transponders in Class G will be implemented irrespective of the limits of technology - which are real. The CAA position is faintly ridiculous in that taken literally it would ground gliders, micro lights, parachuting, etc. Even the CAA in the RIA concedes there would have to be exemptions for those users for whom current transponder technology is impractical.
Ultimately we will all have some sort of device to be electronically visible and that is good. But in the short run, The CAA approach is getting backs up, possibly discouraging the use/installation of Mode C (which is pretty cheap as people equip for Mode S) and driving a cost that, RF pollution aside, adds nothing in class G beyond Mode C (which I am a keen supporter of)
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"spending a lot of time arguing about the inevitable"
"Inevitable" and a support level of 1% just dont seem to go hand in hand
If they do then democracy has truly failed us all.
"Inevitable" and a support level of 1% just dont seem to go hand in hand
If they do then democracy has truly failed us all.
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The French think it is inevitable, but it does not apply to them. This sort of inevitable is fine by me. Even if the CAA tries to force it through, the level of opposition and the technical errors in the plan will lead to lots of delay.
Rod1
Rod1
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Things that are inevitable, but grossly unpopular, and virtually impossible for large sections of the community to comply with, have a way of becoming avoidable when politicians start to get asked awkard questions in public.
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I am old enough to remember those who said the poll tax was inevitable.
Of course, they were correct!
A few wished they hadnt been, and a few wished they had listened and gone about it differently.
Of course, they were correct!
A few wished they hadnt been, and a few wished they had listened and gone about it differently.
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Originally Posted by dublinpilot
Things that are inevitable, but grossly unpopular, and virtually impossible for large sections of the community to comply with, have a way of becoming avoidable when politicians start to get asked awkard questions in public.
God forbid anyone asks a politician "how come my trip home from Ibeefa to Durham goes through a load of uncontrolled airspace and the pilot reckons he's got no idea who else is out there? How can that be allowed? and I heard loadsa stuff nearly hits each other around there. summit should be dun abaatit"
Or
"'ow come my mate reckons he was on a EasyAir special £1 flight into Stanstead [sic] and he reckoned he saw some bloke wiv a lawnmower engine on his back out the winda nearly 'it 'em!!??"
Good luck
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Yep, you're right.
God forbid anyone asks a politician "how come my trip home from Ibeefa to Durham goes through a load of uncontrolled airspace and the pilot reckons he's got no idea who else is out there? How can that be allowed? and I heard loadsa stuff nearly hits each other around there. summit should be dun abaatit"
God forbid anyone asks a politician "how come my trip home from Ibeefa to Durham goes through a load of uncontrolled airspace and the pilot reckons he's got no idea who else is out there? How can that be allowed? and I heard loadsa stuff nearly hits each other around there. summit should be dun abaatit"
Or
"Would sir accept this as a compromise, after all you have no more right to airspace and to be flying around than anyone else?"
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God forbid anyone asks a politician "how come my trip home from Ibeefa to Durham goes through a load of uncontrolled airspace and the pilot reckons he's got no idea who else is out there? How can that be allowed? and I heard loadsa stuff nearly hits each other around there. summit should be dun abaatit"
SS
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I think we all know what would really happen. Especially as the same problems affect Newcastle too.
SS not sure what you are suggesting are "budget devices with iffy effect"
SS not sure what you are suggesting are "budget devices with iffy effect"
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Low powered portable devices with probably a very short range in TCAS terms. Opps! 747 at 400mph, PFA type at 100mph and maybe a 2 mile range? Hmmmmm
SS
SS
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"Yep, you're right.
God forbid anyone asks a politician "how come my trip home from Ibeefa to Durham goes through a load of uncontrolled airspace and the pilot reckons he's got no idea who else is out there? How can that be allowed? and I heard loadsa stuff nearly hits each other around there. summit should be dun abaatit"
Or
"'ow come my mate reckons he was on a EasyAir special £1 flight into Stanstead [sic] and he reckoned he saw some bloke wiv a lawnmower engine on his back out the winda nearly 'it 'em!!??""
That is about the most ridiculous comment I have read on these forums in a very long time.
Next you will want the Turkeys fitted with mode S - after all you know they make a nasty mess of the hot section.
God forbid anyone asks a politician "how come my trip home from Ibeefa to Durham goes through a load of uncontrolled airspace and the pilot reckons he's got no idea who else is out there? How can that be allowed? and I heard loadsa stuff nearly hits each other around there. summit should be dun abaatit"
Or
"'ow come my mate reckons he was on a EasyAir special £1 flight into Stanstead [sic] and he reckoned he saw some bloke wiv a lawnmower engine on his back out the winda nearly 'it 'em!!??""
That is about the most ridiculous comment I have read on these forums in a very long time.
Next you will want the Turkeys fitted with mode S - after all you know they make a nasty mess of the hot section.
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Yep, you're right.
God forbid anyone asks a politician "how come my trip home from Ibeefa to Durham goes through a load of uncontrolled airspace and the pilot reckons he's got no idea who else is out there? How can that be allowed? and I heard loadsa stuff nearly hits each other around there. summit should be dun abaatit"
Or
"'ow come my mate reckons he was on a EasyAir special £1 flight into Stanstead [sic] and he reckoned he saw some bloke wiv a lawnmower engine on his back out the winda nearly 'it 'em!!??"
Good luck
God forbid anyone asks a politician "how come my trip home from Ibeefa to Durham goes through a load of uncontrolled airspace and the pilot reckons he's got no idea who else is out there? How can that be allowed? and I heard loadsa stuff nearly hits each other around there. summit should be dun abaatit"
Or
"'ow come my mate reckons he was on a EasyAir special £1 flight into Stanstead [sic] and he reckoned he saw some bloke wiv a lawnmower engine on his back out the winda nearly 'it 'em!!??"
Good luck
They aren't looking for, or are capable of seeing anything out of the window.
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Originally Posted by Lucy Lastic
In my experience of flying Chavair, the shell-suited self-loading freight is pretty much comatose to bother about looking out of the window, or even to be capable of seeing another 737.
They aren't looking for, or are capable of seeing anything out of the window.
They aren't looking for, or are capable of seeing anything out of the window.
The CAA will notice, too.
These two:
airprox 1
and
airprox 2
in only the last three months of 2006 keep them awake at night wondering if transponders and TCAS or CAS would have helped avoid them.
The airprox archive is full of these. (Which is better than the AAIB being full of them, granted.)
This radar replay is also worth a look.
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Rustle
Are you sure these items actually support your argument. Going through the list of airprox reports they are almost exclusively commercial traffic or military.
There is the one mention of a civil helicopter but no idea as to the type, or a multi-engined civil type. Certainly, it would appear from the limited information contained in thereports, that each aircraft was likely to be carrying the full complement of avionics, yet still was involved in an airprox.
Looking at the airproxes on the list there is no instance of a glider, PFA-type, microlight or paramotor having an airprox, mainly because there is a natural separation.
If Mode S (or Mode C) and TCAS was such a great idea, how come these incidents happened?
Are you sure these items actually support your argument. Going through the list of airprox reports they are almost exclusively commercial traffic or military.
There is the one mention of a civil helicopter but no idea as to the type, or a multi-engined civil type. Certainly, it would appear from the limited information contained in thereports, that each aircraft was likely to be carrying the full complement of avionics, yet still was involved in an airprox.
Looking at the airproxes on the list there is no instance of a glider, PFA-type, microlight or paramotor having an airprox, mainly because there is a natural separation.
If Mode S (or Mode C) and TCAS was such a great idea, how come these incidents happened?