Jumping types as a low-timer
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Jumping types as a low-timer
Hello!
I got my PPL about 2 months ago, and i try to fly at least once every other week, but now there is problem, the piper pa28s in my flying-club are almost without exeption already booked, so i got a check-out on the cessna 172 also. Now to my problem:
As a low-houred pilot (60hours or so), do you think i should wait longer until i start "jumping" betwen the types (pa28 archer and cessna 172), when i'm flying i'm not very worried about the differences, but i am however very cautious about the steering on the ground due to the differences in the nose-wheel steering between the types, and i have a wake-up alarm on my phone ringing each 30-minutes in my pocket to keep reminding me about switching the fuel tanks when on the p28, but still most people claim that jumping between the types is very dangerous with my limited flying experience. I follow the checklists thoroughly for the different types aswell.
What do you think about it? what do you think is the biggest traps and dangers when doing this? and what are your own experiences in this matter?
ö
I got my PPL about 2 months ago, and i try to fly at least once every other week, but now there is problem, the piper pa28s in my flying-club are almost without exeption already booked, so i got a check-out on the cessna 172 also. Now to my problem:
As a low-houred pilot (60hours or so), do you think i should wait longer until i start "jumping" betwen the types (pa28 archer and cessna 172), when i'm flying i'm not very worried about the differences, but i am however very cautious about the steering on the ground due to the differences in the nose-wheel steering between the types, and i have a wake-up alarm on my phone ringing each 30-minutes in my pocket to keep reminding me about switching the fuel tanks when on the p28, but still most people claim that jumping between the types is very dangerous with my limited flying experience. I follow the checklists thoroughly for the different types aswell.
What do you think about it? what do you think is the biggest traps and dangers when doing this? and what are your own experiences in this matter?
ö
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There seem to be two extreme points of view.
Don't be scared of different types, but don't be over confident either. Reading your post I think you have the balance right.
- don't do it until you've got x hundred hours blah blah blah
- it's easy what's the problem don't even know why you need a check ride
Don't be scared of different types, but don't be over confident either. Reading your post I think you have the balance right.
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After 10 hours in the 172 you'll wonder why you even asked the question.
Go have fun!
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This made me check my gliding log book - at 60 solo hours I had flown 7 types solo, and 6 dual.
Admittedly, if there was a type I hadn't flown available I'd try to get a flight in it, so I might be atypical. However, I'm very far from being a hot shot pilot.
I think it did my flying a lot of good, as did flying from unfamiliar airfields. I guess a lot depends on your confidence levels - I took the view that these aircraft were all flown from these airfield by pilots with similar levels of experience to mine, so there would be nothing I shouldn't be able to cope with.
I can't translate this to powered flying because I have a grand total of about 40 mins (Tiger Moth - taxying, takeoff, handling and stalls no problem, ditto approach and roundout but the flare was so far from what I was used to that the instructor did that because he got bored with waiting for me). Fellow type collectors can probably enlighten you here.
For what it's worth, I found that if the aircraft did the same things but in a different way, then I could cope with concentration. Aircraft which added complexity required more experience, such as my current glider which has a tail parachute.
Why not ask an instructor with whom you've flown recently? If he/she thinks you can cope on that type, trust that judgment.
PS In the 250 hrs since then I've only added another 10 or so types - if anyone has an unusual glider I can fly, let me know!
Admittedly, if there was a type I hadn't flown available I'd try to get a flight in it, so I might be atypical. However, I'm very far from being a hot shot pilot.
I think it did my flying a lot of good, as did flying from unfamiliar airfields. I guess a lot depends on your confidence levels - I took the view that these aircraft were all flown from these airfield by pilots with similar levels of experience to mine, so there would be nothing I shouldn't be able to cope with.
I can't translate this to powered flying because I have a grand total of about 40 mins (Tiger Moth - taxying, takeoff, handling and stalls no problem, ditto approach and roundout but the flare was so far from what I was used to that the instructor did that because he got bored with waiting for me). Fellow type collectors can probably enlighten you here.
For what it's worth, I found that if the aircraft did the same things but in a different way, then I could cope with concentration. Aircraft which added complexity required more experience, such as my current glider which has a tail parachute.
Why not ask an instructor with whom you've flown recently? If he/she thinks you can cope on that type, trust that judgment.
PS In the 250 hrs since then I've only added another 10 or so types - if anyone has an unusual glider I can fly, let me know!
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Well... I'm a 70 hr PPL... and I've 4 types of aircraft already logged in, from Piper Colt to Reims Rocket...
IMHO, you shouldn't have any problem with the 172... it's an easy going plane
Regards,
MC
IMHO, you shouldn't have any problem with the 172... it's an easy going plane
Regards,
MC
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Thanks alot for your answers!
Severe accidents due to being unfamiliar with the type seems pretty rare with planes that are easier to fly (p28/c172), my teacher thinks that i wouldn't have any problems as long as i'm very strict with the fueltank and the different nosewheel-steering, but he even thinks that i wouldn't have any problems jumping to the cessna 150 without any check-out, he has roughly 20,000 logged hours of general aviation so he might not have any bigger problems with it, the fact that he claims going to the c150 once mastering the c172 makes me a little bit un-confident taking his words even tough he is a very safety-minded pilot and instructor, so i needed a little bit of advices from alternative sources.
Well i'll start flying both then, maybe could it make teach me more about flying than sticking to the same type
Severe accidents due to being unfamiliar with the type seems pretty rare with planes that are easier to fly (p28/c172), my teacher thinks that i wouldn't have any problems as long as i'm very strict with the fueltank and the different nosewheel-steering, but he even thinks that i wouldn't have any problems jumping to the cessna 150 without any check-out, he has roughly 20,000 logged hours of general aviation so he might not have any bigger problems with it, the fact that he claims going to the c150 once mastering the c172 makes me a little bit un-confident taking his words even tough he is a very safety-minded pilot and instructor, so i needed a little bit of advices from alternative sources.
Well i'll start flying both then, maybe could it make teach me more about flying than sticking to the same type
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And tell your passengers ... we don't want to read of anyone else dying because they didn't know to press the big red switch to switch on the ELT.
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Well I would not agree with that. It is the complacency of thinking that the aircraft is easy to fly that leads to the accident.
I have seen a 172 turning from finals to base, where the aircraft was low, slow and presumably out of trim in a slip as it spun into the ground at about 300 feet.
Had nothing to do with fuel etc, simply the pilot was not totally familiar with the aircraft characteristics. He had very few hours on type.
It is interesting that you make no mention that your instructor advises that you know all the V speeds for that model.
I would be cautious.
I have seen a 172 turning from finals to base, where the aircraft was low, slow and presumably out of trim in a slip as it spun into the ground at about 300 feet.
Had nothing to do with fuel etc, simply the pilot was not totally familiar with the aircraft characteristics. He had very few hours on type.
It is interesting that you make no mention that your instructor advises that you know all the V speeds for that model.
I would be cautious.
Go for it, fly different aircraft.
You could make little cheat cards that fit on your knee board with the different speeds for the different types and maybe even a couple of personal notes about individual airplanes.
If you haven't flown a type for a couple of weeks, read the POH the night before you fly just to refresh...ENJOY!
You could make little cheat cards that fit on your knee board with the different speeds for the different types and maybe even a couple of personal notes about individual airplanes.
If you haven't flown a type for a couple of weeks, read the POH the night before you fly just to refresh...ENJOY!
First 100 hours I flew 11 types - you should be fine, just think about what you're doing and do it in your own time.
One tip for aircraft with left & right tanks is to switch to whatever tank matches the half of your watch the minute hand is in (subject to contents, of course) - so from the hour to half past you're on the right and from half past back up to the hour you're on the left. You glance at your watch often enough to remind yourself. Works for me.
Then find a Piper Cub or similar, add another type to your logbook, do tailwheel differences, achieve something great and really smile.
One tip for aircraft with left & right tanks is to switch to whatever tank matches the half of your watch the minute hand is in (subject to contents, of course) - so from the hour to half past you're on the right and from half past back up to the hour you're on the left. You glance at your watch often enough to remind yourself. Works for me.
Then find a Piper Cub or similar, add another type to your logbook, do tailwheel differences, achieve something great and really smile.
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Fly as many types as you can! I had about 15 types by the time I had 150 hours.
The more different types you fly, the more you will realize they are the same. I'm talking about the general actions and principles.
You will also better appreciate aircraft with nicer handling properties. Getting into taildraggers will further improve your skills and appreciation; do that as soon as possible.
You my like to consider two techniques. Either develop a generic checklist which will cover all types or develop a scan which goes from one side of the cockpit to the other so that every item is in the correct setting for the situation. I prefer the latter.
Consider BUMPHFF, on downwind, in a Tiger Moth. Brakes-none, Undercarriage-none, Mixture-none, Propellor control-none, Hatch and harness-still closed and on (because no-one has left their seat or climbed out (and what if they had?)), Fuel-Still on ('cause the engine is still running) and sufficient, Flaps-none.
Great. But it doesn't cover the slats which should be unlocked (they should have been locked for aeros).
The more different types you fly, the more you will realize they are the same. I'm talking about the general actions and principles.
You will also better appreciate aircraft with nicer handling properties. Getting into taildraggers will further improve your skills and appreciation; do that as soon as possible.
You my like to consider two techniques. Either develop a generic checklist which will cover all types or develop a scan which goes from one side of the cockpit to the other so that every item is in the correct setting for the situation. I prefer the latter.
Consider BUMPHFF, on downwind, in a Tiger Moth. Brakes-none, Undercarriage-none, Mixture-none, Propellor control-none, Hatch and harness-still closed and on (because no-one has left their seat or climbed out (and what if they had?)), Fuel-Still on ('cause the engine is still running) and sufficient, Flaps-none.
Great. But it doesn't cover the slats which should be unlocked (they should have been locked for aeros).
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I am coming up to my qualifying cross country at about 48 or so hours, and I have flown the C150, C172, PA28-140 & PA28-180. All as P1 at some stage. Yes it can be demanding remembering the different speeds and when I went back into the 172 after about 8 hours in the PA28 it did take a few minutes to re-adjust, if in doubt take an instructor along!
The number of hours you have is not important, you attitude and respecting your craft is!
The number of hours you have is not important, you attitude and respecting your craft is!
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The incident I'm thinking of, the aircraft crashed killing the pilot, the ELT failed to go off by itself, and the passengers had died of exposure by the time they were found a few day later simply because they didn't know to push the button.
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[quote=Özcan;3070279]Hello!
What do you think about it? what do you think is the biggest traps and dangers when doing this? and what are your own experiences in this matter?
hi oz,
i would'nt worry about it.
they handle much the same but you are about to find out if you are a piper or cessna person.
some people like to sit on top of the wing...others to hang below it. of course there are little differences in handling and comfort ( overwing tend to slip as if in a saucer ) in bumpy/gusty conditions more so than planes where you sit underwing but then the view is better.
as far as the fuel is concerned you are right to be cautious especially in the pa28 but then you learned in that so less likely to forget the fuel selector ..than if you went from cessna to pa 28 ( as the cessna has a ''BOTH'' position for the selector) . however, even in the cessna you will be checking which thank is selected during your cruise checks ( even though you may be flying on ''both''... because some versions have a placard advising you to select right of left when above 5000...so you may not always be in the '' both '' position...and checking after that the fuel contents for the tank selected so i see no problem.
as 2112 said...after 10 hours in the 172 you'll wonder why you asked the question.
i would say 5 hours.
seems to me you are a responsible and diligent person about your flying...so get on with it and do'nt worry too much about the change.it will do you good. some people have to use different planes in their initial training and thats not always a bad thing.
if you are going to be a cessna person you wont want to go back....but thats a personal choice.
both are good aircraft....i happen to find cessnas a nicer kinda good...!!!!
. good luck and enjoy..
the dean.
What do you think about it? what do you think is the biggest traps and dangers when doing this? and what are your own experiences in this matter?
hi oz,
i would'nt worry about it.
they handle much the same but you are about to find out if you are a piper or cessna person.
some people like to sit on top of the wing...others to hang below it. of course there are little differences in handling and comfort ( overwing tend to slip as if in a saucer ) in bumpy/gusty conditions more so than planes where you sit underwing but then the view is better.
as far as the fuel is concerned you are right to be cautious especially in the pa28 but then you learned in that so less likely to forget the fuel selector ..than if you went from cessna to pa 28 ( as the cessna has a ''BOTH'' position for the selector) . however, even in the cessna you will be checking which thank is selected during your cruise checks ( even though you may be flying on ''both''... because some versions have a placard advising you to select right of left when above 5000...so you may not always be in the '' both '' position...and checking after that the fuel contents for the tank selected so i see no problem.
as 2112 said...after 10 hours in the 172 you'll wonder why you asked the question.
i would say 5 hours.
seems to me you are a responsible and diligent person about your flying...so get on with it and do'nt worry too much about the change.it will do you good. some people have to use different planes in their initial training and thats not always a bad thing.
if you are going to be a cessna person you wont want to go back....but thats a personal choice.
both are good aircraft....i happen to find cessnas a nicer kinda good...!!!!
. good luck and enjoy.. the dean.
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... and i have a wake-up alarm on my phone ringing each 30-minutes in my pocket to keep reminding me about switching the fuel tanks when on the p28 ...
If you're doing proper FREDA checks, and not just glossing over the letters one by one, then F = fuel = pump on and change tanks - circa EVERY FIFTEEN MINUTES.You're implying you'd be well stuffed if you forgot your phone one day!
Be decisive, practice taxying if ground handling is an issue, take an instructor one more time. Go for it and enjoy.
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Thanks alot for all the comments and advices!
Also i've never tought about practising taxiing, i've done almost all of my flight-training on a controlled airport where you need a clearence for everything and almost all general-aviation airfields has been closed down by our Swedish government for no good reasons, so my opportunities for practising it has been very limited, but i will select a good field for that matter during my next cross-country.
Also i've solved the fuel-issue by writing the letters F&C with inc on my maps, along all routes and places that i fly over frequently.
Also i've never tought about practising taxiing, i've done almost all of my flight-training on a controlled airport where you need a clearence for everything and almost all general-aviation airfields has been closed down by our Swedish government for no good reasons, so my opportunities for practising it has been very limited, but i will select a good field for that matter during my next cross-country.
Also i've solved the fuel-issue by writing the letters F&C with inc on my maps, along all routes and places that i fly over frequently.
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Sounds to me as if you are the sort of person who is going to be OK changing from type to type. You are concerned, you are getting training and are being cautious. All of these are very wise.
I would be much more worried about someone who thought it was easy and not concerned.
So as long as you prepare well, follow checklists etc. you will be OK. Accidents happen when you get complacent, and you don't sound complacent.
I would say that getting experience in different types is good, make sure that you are shown the stall and emergency landing proceedures and characteristics for each type rather than just circuits, You will become a pilot rather than a driver of just one type of aeroplane.
I would be much more worried about someone who thought it was easy and not concerned.
So as long as you prepare well, follow checklists etc. you will be OK. Accidents happen when you get complacent, and you don't sound complacent.
I would say that getting experience in different types is good, make sure that you are shown the stall and emergency landing proceedures and characteristics for each type rather than just circuits, You will become a pilot rather than a driver of just one type of aeroplane.
