VFR Charts on-line?
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not legally.
The UK CAA has done a commercial deal with an outfit called Memory Map which sells the CAA VFR charts in electronic form, and you can view them using the Memory Map application which runs under Windoze and under Pocket/PC (PDA). This is a GPS moving map program.
Bootleg versions of loads of MM maps are circulating on P2P.
The UK CAA has done a commercial deal with an outfit called Memory Map which sells the CAA VFR charts in electronic form, and you can view them using the Memory Map application which runs under Windoze and under Pocket/PC (PDA). This is a GPS moving map program.
Bootleg versions of loads of MM maps are circulating on P2P.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank goodness ! I'm not a geek (yet). What pray tell, is P2P ??
On a more serious note. I'm looking at getting a GPS equipped PDA and using the digital charts. Would appreciate some indication of what can/can't be done with a PDA & MM Digi-chart combination.
1.Can you do flight planning on them? ie; when touring.
2.Do they give times to next waypoint/destination.
3.Can you type in any GOPS coordinates to use as a waypoint ?
Or, can somebody point me in the direction of a genuine users review?
On a more serious note. I'm looking at getting a GPS equipped PDA and using the digital charts. Would appreciate some indication of what can/can't be done with a PDA & MM Digi-chart combination.
1.Can you do flight planning on them? ie; when touring.
2.Do they give times to next waypoint/destination.
3.Can you type in any GOPS coordinates to use as a waypoint ?
Or, can somebody point me in the direction of a genuine users review?
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As far as I am aware, the only PDA GPS moving map application which has adequate (and adequately accurate) UK/European coverage and which supports flight/route planning is PocketFMS.
If you just want a GPS moving map that runs on a PDA, there are several other choices:
Memory Map (UK CAA charts only)
Oziexplorer (no aviation charts; you obtain bootleg ones, or scan in your own ones, works with any map whatsoever)
There are some other products that use dedicated hardware.
Then of course there are the dedicated aviation GPSs, but you asked about PDAs.
I don't like a PDA as the primary GPS. Too unreliable (Pocket/PC is a load of cr*p - imagine Windoze 3.0, 1990 vintage, level of reliability) and mechanically flimsy. It's OK as a casual backup. For one's main GPS, I would get the best dedicated aviation unit I could afford; perhaps a Garmin 296. Now of course 50 people will jump in, each with their own favourite
If you are willing to spend some money and move up so a "bigger PDA" then you can run other software on a Tablet PC. Something like a Motion Computing LS800 (do a google) will run a bunch of GPS moving map apps:
Navbox (also does flight planning; simply the best for European VFR)
Memory Map (very pretty display of the real CAA charts)
Jeppesen Flitemap (now discontinued but still "around"; can run the Jepp 1:500k VFR charts as a moving map).
The basic problem with the UK charts is that the CAA has decided to make money, by flogging their map data to Memory Map. The result is a set of very expensive electronic charts. All the while everybody moans about airspace infringements....
P2P (peer to peer) is a generic name for a network for sharing music, software, various other bootleg stuff...
If you just want a GPS moving map that runs on a PDA, there are several other choices:
Memory Map (UK CAA charts only)
Oziexplorer (no aviation charts; you obtain bootleg ones, or scan in your own ones, works with any map whatsoever)
There are some other products that use dedicated hardware.
Then of course there are the dedicated aviation GPSs, but you asked about PDAs.
I don't like a PDA as the primary GPS. Too unreliable (Pocket/PC is a load of cr*p - imagine Windoze 3.0, 1990 vintage, level of reliability) and mechanically flimsy. It's OK as a casual backup. For one's main GPS, I would get the best dedicated aviation unit I could afford; perhaps a Garmin 296. Now of course 50 people will jump in, each with their own favourite
If you are willing to spend some money and move up so a "bigger PDA" then you can run other software on a Tablet PC. Something like a Motion Computing LS800 (do a google) will run a bunch of GPS moving map apps:
Navbox (also does flight planning; simply the best for European VFR)
Memory Map (very pretty display of the real CAA charts)
Jeppesen Flitemap (now discontinued but still "around"; can run the Jepp 1:500k VFR charts as a moving map).
The basic problem with the UK charts is that the CAA has decided to make money, by flogging their map data to Memory Map. The result is a set of very expensive electronic charts. All the while everybody moans about airspace infringements....
P2P (peer to peer) is a generic name for a network for sharing music, software, various other bootleg stuff...
Micro
I use Memory Map and like it, it depends what you're after. Drop me a PM and we'll see if we can meet up, then you can have a go. We're not far from each other.
I use Memory Map and like it, it depends what you're after. Drop me a PM and we'll see if we can meet up, then you can have a go. We're not far from each other.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 246
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IO,
can you explain why you regard NAvbox better than PocketFMS? Besides the fact that PFMS runs on a PDA. It can be ran on a Tablet PC as well.
I like PFMS, and have no experience with Navbox.
Regards,
JC
can you explain why you regard NAvbox better than PocketFMS? Besides the fact that PFMS runs on a PDA. It can be ran on a Tablet PC as well.
I like PFMS, and have no experience with Navbox.
Regards,
JC
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Micro,
In the past I’ve had a Garmin 295, 96C, 296, Lowrance 600C, Mio 168 and a A701.
I use a MioA701 Pocket PC (built in GPS and mobile phone) running Memory Map as I find that you can beet looking at the proper CAA charts (unfortunately only the UK charts are available).
But when it comes to using ‘go-to’ type of functionality, Runway & Comms information (at a touch of a button), and unit reliability I think a purpose made device is better.
I’d nave no props flying with my 296 (less than £500 off e-bay) as a primary navigation device, though I would never do that….
But I would only use a pocket PC to confirm my position on a paper map (so I’ll be ready when I have to re-set it).
If I had a small budget and wanted the most reliable and informative device I’d go for a Garmin 96C.
Rans.
www.FlightForLife.co.uk
In the past I’ve had a Garmin 295, 96C, 296, Lowrance 600C, Mio 168 and a A701.
I use a MioA701 Pocket PC (built in GPS and mobile phone) running Memory Map as I find that you can beet looking at the proper CAA charts (unfortunately only the UK charts are available).
But when it comes to using ‘go-to’ type of functionality, Runway & Comms information (at a touch of a button), and unit reliability I think a purpose made device is better.
I’d nave no props flying with my 296 (less than £500 off e-bay) as a primary navigation device, though I would never do that….
But I would only use a pocket PC to confirm my position on a paper map (so I’ll be ready when I have to re-set it).
If I had a small budget and wanted the most reliable and informative device I’d go for a Garmin 96C.
Rans.
www.FlightForLife.co.uk
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
can you explain why you regard NAvbox better than PocketFMS? Besides the fact that PFMS runs on a PDA. It can be ran on a Tablet PC as well
Only because Navbox has a man working there who gets the AIPs each month, or when they come out, and stuffs any changes into the Navbox database.
From what I have seen of PocketFMS (I have not used it) it looks a very nice product, but the update process for it isn't rigorous (AFAIK). It's probably fine in the UK, where there is a lot of GA activity but further out it isn't going to get tested as well. I have a bit of a bee under my bonnet about this subject, having played with several U.S. flight planning products which "supported Europe" and which turned out to be useless over here.
A lot depends on how one is using this stuff though.
Normally, in VFR, you use the printed chart as the primary terrain and CAS reference, and the flight planning program is used as little more than a fancy blog generator, with the option to print off a simple map showing the route. Even so, it is a huge timesaver.
Obviously it helps if the airports, navaids and intersections are in the right place, but they probably will be since everybody making flight planning software simply extracts the lat/long of these from one of the public aviation databases (the recently-closed U.S. DAFIF, Eurocontrol, etc) in as automated a manner as they can.
Similarly, terrain won't change so if you ripped off some contour chart 10 years ago, and did it right, it will still be just as good. Obstacles do change but you are using an up to date printed chart for the MSA, right?
The benefit of an accurate and rigorously updated flight planning program is that you can click on an airport, get the phone/fax numbers, avgas availability, PPR requirements, etc. AFAIK every flight planning program, and also books like Pooleys, simply extract this out of the national AIPs. The UK AIP is pretty accurate but elsewhere in Europe this isn't necessarily the case, with duff phone numbers etc being common. This of course somewhat undermines my argument for Navbox, but I still find it accurate for the most part - as far as Greece.
The GPS moving map application is arguably a separate requirement. It would be great if the best flight planning app also did the best GPS moving map, but in practice this is hard to achieve since something compact enough to use in the cockpit is basically cr*p for ground based tasks. The nearest is probably a top-end Tablet PC but you probably want to plug a keyboard and a trackball/mouse into it when doing flight planning.
Personally, I separate the two tasks completely.
On the ground I use a compact but ordinary laptop for flight planning (which also has WIFI+GSM+GPRS so I can get weather on it, fax PPR etc) and it runs Navbox for VFR and Jepp Flitemap for IFR/airways. This is a really slick setup and very easy to do. I even carry a little printer, a Canon IP90 (and there are smaller ones), on long trips away.
In the air I use a panel mounted IFR GPS for primary nav and this can drive the autopilot etc. For UK OCAS messing about I run Memory Map on a 8" tablet PC and this shows all the CAS nicely. Anybody busting CAS with one of these has no excuse at all. I have also run MM on a HP4700 640x480 PDA but I need reading glasses to see it On IFR flights I run Flitemap on the tablet as a monitoring device (it also shows the nearest airport, etc) but the hard drive on it fails at FL140...
Sorry for the long answer, which I hope is useful.
Only because Navbox has a man working there who gets the AIPs each month, or when they come out, and stuffs any changes into the Navbox database.
From what I have seen of PocketFMS (I have not used it) it looks a very nice product, but the update process for it isn't rigorous (AFAIK). It's probably fine in the UK, where there is a lot of GA activity but further out it isn't going to get tested as well. I have a bit of a bee under my bonnet about this subject, having played with several U.S. flight planning products which "supported Europe" and which turned out to be useless over here.
A lot depends on how one is using this stuff though.
Normally, in VFR, you use the printed chart as the primary terrain and CAS reference, and the flight planning program is used as little more than a fancy blog generator, with the option to print off a simple map showing the route. Even so, it is a huge timesaver.
Obviously it helps if the airports, navaids and intersections are in the right place, but they probably will be since everybody making flight planning software simply extracts the lat/long of these from one of the public aviation databases (the recently-closed U.S. DAFIF, Eurocontrol, etc) in as automated a manner as they can.
Similarly, terrain won't change so if you ripped off some contour chart 10 years ago, and did it right, it will still be just as good. Obstacles do change but you are using an up to date printed chart for the MSA, right?
The benefit of an accurate and rigorously updated flight planning program is that you can click on an airport, get the phone/fax numbers, avgas availability, PPR requirements, etc. AFAIK every flight planning program, and also books like Pooleys, simply extract this out of the national AIPs. The UK AIP is pretty accurate but elsewhere in Europe this isn't necessarily the case, with duff phone numbers etc being common. This of course somewhat undermines my argument for Navbox, but I still find it accurate for the most part - as far as Greece.
The GPS moving map application is arguably a separate requirement. It would be great if the best flight planning app also did the best GPS moving map, but in practice this is hard to achieve since something compact enough to use in the cockpit is basically cr*p for ground based tasks. The nearest is probably a top-end Tablet PC but you probably want to plug a keyboard and a trackball/mouse into it when doing flight planning.
Personally, I separate the two tasks completely.
On the ground I use a compact but ordinary laptop for flight planning (which also has WIFI+GSM+GPRS so I can get weather on it, fax PPR etc) and it runs Navbox for VFR and Jepp Flitemap for IFR/airways. This is a really slick setup and very easy to do. I even carry a little printer, a Canon IP90 (and there are smaller ones), on long trips away.
In the air I use a panel mounted IFR GPS for primary nav and this can drive the autopilot etc. For UK OCAS messing about I run Memory Map on a 8" tablet PC and this shows all the CAS nicely. Anybody busting CAS with one of these has no excuse at all. I have also run MM on a HP4700 640x480 PDA but I need reading glasses to see it
On IFR flights I run Flitemap on the tablet as a monitoring device (it also shows the nearest airport, etc) but the hard drive on it fails at FL140...Sorry for the long answer, which I hope is useful.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: kent
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Before you spend any money on maps for your PDA, take it with on a flight in your usual aircraft and make sure you can see the info on the screen, particularly on a sunny day.
I found that mine was unreadable in the Jodel with its all perspex canopy.
I found that mine was unreadable in the Jodel with its all perspex canopy.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: surrey
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
can you explain why you regard NAvbox better than PocketFMS?
I find the pFMS user interface counter-intuitive and sluggish. This is partly due to the PDA form factor and the fact that it has so much functionality crammed in.
I have found a few minor airspace errors in PocketFMS and this may get worse now that they are reliant on volunteers to provide updates following the US stopping distribution of the data. Navbox appears to be rock solid in this respect.
I have also used MemoryMap on the PDA, but found that with the chart zoomed in to the point where text is readable, the area of airspace displayed was too small. What I liked was that with the paper chart on your lap and the very same chart on the screen with a "you are here" in the centre, made it very easy to cross-refer between the two.
In summary, I regard:
Navbox as a flight planner with a bit of added moving map functionality
PocketFMS as a moving map with a bit of flight planning added on
MemoryMap as a map viewer (PC) and moving map (PDA)
I believe that the key to a good flight is good planning, which makes Navbox the most powerful tool for my needs.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: surrey
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A couple of things to add to my last post.
I believe that the high cost of MemoryMap digitised charts is due to the licensing of the underlying OS charts rather than the CAA airspace data. Ordnance Survey are VERY protective of their mapping data.
I am monitoring the development of Tablet PCs with interest. They have taken a long time to establish any kind of market share, but the pace of development does now seem to be accelerating. When I can buy a thin tablet with a 10" sunlight readable display and large FLASH drive for < £1000 then I will give it very serious consideration! This would allow selection of the appropriate software based on mission profile, scanned in IAPs, checklists etc and be a useful asset on the ground for email, web and work without the need for a separate laptop.
I think I may have to be patient for a year or two (at least)
I believe that the high cost of MemoryMap digitised charts is due to the licensing of the underlying OS charts rather than the CAA airspace data. Ordnance Survey are VERY protective of their mapping data.
I am monitoring the development of Tablet PCs with interest. They have taken a long time to establish any kind of market share, but the pace of development does now seem to be accelerating. When I can buy a thin tablet with a 10" sunlight readable display and large FLASH drive for < £1000 then I will give it very serious consideration! This would allow selection of the appropriate software based on mission profile, scanned in IAPs, checklists etc and be a useful asset on the ground for email, web and work without the need for a separate laptop.
I think I may have to be patient for a year or two (at least)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have found a few minor airspace errors in PocketFMS and this may get worse now that they are reliant on volunteers to provide updates following the US stopping distribution of the data. Navbox appears to be rock solid in this respect.
I agree with this; updating airspace shapes is a b*gger because it is published in the national AIPs as a list of coordinates, so there is no way one can automate the process. The best one can do is copy/paste the text from the AIP PDF into the flight planning program database, but AFAIK most AIP documents don't show what has changed which makes the updating job much harder. The people in the national CAAs who are responsible for these useless unreadable documents need their head examined. I remember one bit of airspace around Lyon which Jepp got wrong, which IGN got wrong (but differently wrong from Jepp) and only SIA got it right.
Eurocontrol are doing a fun project called Skyview which is a Euro-wide layered database of all aviation objects. One can produce quite pretty charts with it, but there appears to be no way to print them out in a manner useful for VFR - no man-made obstacle data for a start although they appear to have the basic terrain in there somewhere. This may produce something useful one day...
The CAA do indeed claim to pay lots of $$$ to the Ordnance Survey but they don't need to. O/S stuff is a waste of money. The same data could be obtained much cheaper from any number of commercial mapping outfits. In fact I believe the obstacle data comes from the MOD, not from the O/S, so why they use the O/S at all I don't know. They would do GA a real service if they turned out free or cheap downloadable (and bang up to date) VFR charts which can be printed off in sections.
The O/S has crazy policies; for example with Memory Map they insist that if you upgrade the application then all your O/S maps must be rendered useless. Fortunately there is an easy hack...
There is finally one more product which can be used for VFR charts: Jepp Flitestar, with the Raster Charts add-on. £200 for the R/C for Europe and for that you get all their "VFR/GPS" charts which cover most of Europe. They are not as good as the CAA charts though, and do have errors.
I agree with this; updating airspace shapes is a b*gger because it is published in the national AIPs as a list of coordinates, so there is no way one can automate the process. The best one can do is copy/paste the text from the AIP PDF into the flight planning program database, but AFAIK most AIP documents don't show what has changed which makes the updating job much harder. The people in the national CAAs who are responsible for these useless unreadable documents need their head examined. I remember one bit of airspace around Lyon which Jepp got wrong, which IGN got wrong (but differently wrong from Jepp) and only SIA got it right.
Eurocontrol are doing a fun project called Skyview which is a Euro-wide layered database of all aviation objects. One can produce quite pretty charts with it, but there appears to be no way to print them out in a manner useful for VFR - no man-made obstacle data for a start although they appear to have the basic terrain in there somewhere. This may produce something useful one day...
The CAA do indeed claim to pay lots of $$$ to the Ordnance Survey but they don't need to. O/S stuff is a waste of money. The same data could be obtained much cheaper from any number of commercial mapping outfits. In fact I believe the obstacle data comes from the MOD, not from the O/S, so why they use the O/S at all I don't know. They would do GA a real service if they turned out free or cheap downloadable (and bang up to date) VFR charts which can be printed off in sections.
The O/S has crazy policies; for example with Memory Map they insist that if you upgrade the application then all your O/S maps must be rendered useless. Fortunately there is an easy hack...
There is finally one more product which can be used for VFR charts: Jepp Flitestar, with the Raster Charts add-on. £200 for the R/C for Europe and for that you get all their "VFR/GPS" charts which cover most of Europe. They are not as good as the CAA charts though, and do have errors.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: surrey
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Skyview does look promising. I registered last year, spent an evening playing with it and decided it had potential to be a great resource but I could not actually see what practical use I could put it to right now. Definitely something to watch develop, as you say.
Yep, found that. In fact, if I hadn't been 'driven' to look for it by the stupid policy, I probably never would have discovered that other people were so willing to, how shall I put this, "share their investment" in digital charts in dark corners of the net.
Originally Posted by IO540
Fortunately there is an easy hack...
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: surrey
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Samsung Q1 (I assume that's a Q1 Basil?) is in my acceptable price range (remarkably good value in fact) but I read the screen is not so good unless in full shade and it is a bit smaller than I want (7 or 8"?).
I envision using a tablet on my lap, replacing a kneeboard and giving me somewhere to scribble. Any thoughts on that or am I barking up the wrong tree?
I envision using a tablet on my lap, replacing a kneeboard and giving me somewhere to scribble. Any thoughts on that or am I barking up the wrong tree?
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Littlehampton
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes it is a Q1, you are right if operating on battery only 'power save' mode then the screen is rather dark. On full bright the battery lasts only about 90 mins, so I run it off a 7500mah 19v model aircraft Lipo pack on full bright - good performance even in direct sunlight for about 4 hours. It's small and light enough to stick onto the panel with plastic zip in tape. You might read about hard disk failure above 10,000ft, I've had no problem with Samsung or Sony Vaio computers up to 15'000ft. I can also fully recommend Memory Map.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Northampton UK
Posts: 537
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cut & paste from another current thread; in the US they have http://skyvector.com/.
I'm sure this has been done before, but why can't we have the same in the UK?
RC
I'm sure this has been done before, but why can't we have the same in the UK?
RC
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
why can't we have the same in the UK?
The answer is lack of imagination on the part of the aviation authorities, although it isn't just the UK, it's the same in all of Europe. Nobody in Europe publishes free aviation (or any other) charts. Also much of Europe has negligible GA activity so there isn't a pressing need.
This tight grip on maps has given rise to a huge underground movement, distributing bootleg GPS mapping data. Whole continents have been covered already with "free" contour maps, of all kinds of "interesting" origins (e.g. USSR 1942 maps for Africa) and all georeferenced so it runs as a GPS moving map in say Oziexplorer, but there isn't anything on the aviation front, partly because it is such a narrow field and partly because the stuff changes and out of date charts are as much use as a chocolate teapot.
In the USA, they have an old principle that stuff produced with taxpayer money is public domain. Very logical really. This has placed a huge amount of stuff in the PD which remains tightly copyrighted everywhere else. This is why they have free enroute charts. But that doesn't explain why their approach plates are usable in the cockpit, while the European ones mostly aren't
The Q1 tablet is interesting. I don't believe it is sunlight readable though. In 2005 I flew a lot with a bigger tablet (IX104) with a "normal" LCD and it's no good. The LS800 with the optional polarised screen is entirely usable, however, even in direct sunlight.
Tablets are getting there. However, the biggest problem is the lack of digital map data. Memory Map have a UK solution but one isn't going to enter the market with a UK-only product. Anyway, the CAA charts are supplied to MM as a raster, so it isn't a layered database. You will never be able to click on an airport and read off the frequencies, etc. Jepp have the current monopoly on that, but their mapping data is virtually unsuitable for sole use for VFR, largely due to their useless depiction of CAS.
The answer is lack of imagination on the part of the aviation authorities, although it isn't just the UK, it's the same in all of Europe. Nobody in Europe publishes free aviation (or any other) charts. Also much of Europe has negligible GA activity so there isn't a pressing need.
This tight grip on maps has given rise to a huge underground movement, distributing bootleg GPS mapping data. Whole continents have been covered already with "free" contour maps, of all kinds of "interesting" origins (e.g. USSR 1942 maps for Africa) and all georeferenced so it runs as a GPS moving map in say Oziexplorer, but there isn't anything on the aviation front, partly because it is such a narrow field and partly because the stuff changes and out of date charts are as much use as a chocolate teapot.
In the USA, they have an old principle that stuff produced with taxpayer money is public domain. Very logical really. This has placed a huge amount of stuff in the PD which remains tightly copyrighted everywhere else. This is why they have free enroute charts. But that doesn't explain why their approach plates are usable in the cockpit, while the European ones mostly aren't
The Q1 tablet is interesting. I don't believe it is sunlight readable though. In 2005 I flew a lot with a bigger tablet (IX104) with a "normal" LCD and it's no good. The LS800 with the optional polarised screen is entirely usable, however, even in direct sunlight.
Tablets are getting there. However, the biggest problem is the lack of digital map data. Memory Map have a UK solution but one isn't going to enter the market with a UK-only product. Anyway, the CAA charts are supplied to MM as a raster, so it isn't a layered database. You will never be able to click on an airport and read off the frequencies, etc. Jepp have the current monopoly on that, but their mapping data is virtually unsuitable for sole use for VFR, largely due to their useless depiction of CAS.
Nobody's yet mentioned Skymap - I've only ever had a play with the dedicated installation (which is the dog's wotsits) but there's now a PDA version. Anybody had a go?