VFR Charts on-line?
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WHAT????
I'd always assumed Memory Map knew 'electronically' where the airports where, where the VOR's & NDB's where etc.....
.....you mean it knows nothing???? It only shows a picture of the map?
Isn't that useless in aviation terms? Doesn't that defeat the whole point of an aviation gps? Would you be better off getting oxiexplorer and simply scan in your own chart?
I really can't see the point in that at all, especially when there are other products out there that do know where everything is (including the airspace).
dp
I'd always assumed Memory Map knew 'electronically' where the airports where, where the VOR's & NDB's where etc.....
.....you mean it knows nothing???? It only shows a picture of the map?
Isn't that useless in aviation terms? Doesn't that defeat the whole point of an aviation gps? Would you be better off getting oxiexplorer and simply scan in your own chart?
I really can't see the point in that at all, especially when there are other products out there that do know where everything is (including the airspace).
dp
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The point is that:
a) It shows your actual position on the actual CAA chart
b) you CAN click anywhere on the map and go a "go to", by adding a WP. You just have to add it first. I downloaded the actual "official" FAA ones and it is nice to see they line up with the map ones - I also downloaded fixes (SAM25, SAM36 etc) which are not shown on the VFR charts
c) The charts are only £50 for each CAA 1:500000 but include the 1:250000 and airfield diagrams (saves a shed load of scanning and calibrating)
All in all Memory Map is a good product, but like all things lacks in some areas. Equally there are many good moving map GPS's out there but they lack the "look and feel" of the CAA charts.
For VFR flying I'd like the look and feel of the CAA charts but combined with the features found in many GPS's, for example TAWS, "Direct To", "Nearest" etc....Flymap looks interesting, I wonder what it costs compared to the likes of a 496...?
a) It shows your actual position on the actual CAA chart
b) you CAN click anywhere on the map and go a "go to", by adding a WP. You just have to add it first. I downloaded the actual "official" FAA ones and it is nice to see they line up with the map ones - I also downloaded fixes (SAM25, SAM36 etc) which are not shown on the VFR charts
c) The charts are only £50 for each CAA 1:500000 but include the 1:250000 and airfield diagrams (saves a shed load of scanning and calibrating)
All in all Memory Map is a good product, but like all things lacks in some areas. Equally there are many good moving map GPS's out there but they lack the "look and feel" of the CAA charts.
For VFR flying I'd like the look and feel of the CAA charts but combined with the features found in many GPS's, for example TAWS, "Direct To", "Nearest" etc....Flymap looks interesting, I wonder what it costs compared to the likes of a 496...?
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Indeed, having the CAA chart running on a reasonable-size moving map (say 8" diagonal) makes a really nice device for "casual" flying around the UK, or as a belt-and-braces backup to one's main GPS on a preplanned flight.
The only way to be able to "right-click" on such a device and get say airport properties, would be if there was an underlying map which is in fact a multi-layered database. This is what you get with Navbox, the now-defunct Jepp Flitemap, or Jeppview. But only one of these (Flitemap) is capable of running what most people would call proper VFR charts.
It's possible that Flymap does have an underlying basemap underneath the raster chart.
None of this is rocket science; as I've said before the real trick is to do it nicely but without getting done for a breach of somebody's copyright
If you wanted to do it yourself, it would be technically a piece of cake.
The only way to be able to "right-click" on such a device and get say airport properties, would be if there was an underlying map which is in fact a multi-layered database. This is what you get with Navbox, the now-defunct Jepp Flitemap, or Jeppview. But only one of these (Flitemap) is capable of running what most people would call proper VFR charts.
It's possible that Flymap does have an underlying basemap underneath the raster chart.
None of this is rocket science; as I've said before the real trick is to do it nicely but without getting done for a breach of somebody's copyright
If you wanted to do it yourself, it would be technically a piece of cake.
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What an interesting discussion.
In so far as maps are concerned it seems to me the maps should cover not only the UK but Western Europe. This should ensure commercial viability.
The DAFIF aeronautical database was closed to the public domain last year. That means there is no public domain digital information available. In consequence providers will either use commercial suppliers such as Jep who provide Europe wide coverage, the CAA who provide UK coverage or PocketFMS.
Jep is more costly both initially and on an ongoing basis if the software is kept up to date. In consequence its use is restricted to dedicated aviation products such as those offered by Garmin. Memory map has the limitations already discussed here.
So far as I am aware PocketFMS is the only other European source that has managed to maintain an “independent” supply of Europe wide aviation maps although even they are now about to charge users.
In my opinion PFMS maps are superb. They are now supported by a band a enthusiastic and dedicated users who have a vested interest in their accuracy. Despite some comment on here to the contrary the original DAFIF maps were very accurate and contained only the odd “error”, errors which were well documented on the PFMS forum.
Anyone who wishes to use a non dedicated moving map product would do well to have a look at the PFMS web site.
The issue of suitable hardware has also been discussed.
In an ideal world a moving map GPS should provide the reliability that would leave the user confident to use the system IFR. There are a few panel mounted products that meet that requirement. Garmin’s G1000 system is in my view superb, with excellent redundancy in terms of its dual interchangeable displays, superb view ability and robustness. It comes at a price. Integras system is in my view less good. The user interface is fussy and personally I don’t like the lack of screen redundancy.
Units like the GNS-430 are excellent but are more orientated towards IFR operations and do not provide the same situational detail as the G1000 or Integra displays.
Units such as the G-496, PDAs, and tablets all compete for the same ground in providing portable non certified moving map displays that offer broad situational information and en route navigation. They all have to overcome a few common hurdles - accurate and clear maps which can be regularly updated on a cost effective basis, screens that are sufficiently large and readable in sun light, and a reasonable user interface.
In my opinion most of the dedicated portable offerings do the job. Their greatest drawbacks are that their screens are a little small, their internal power supply is unlikely to be adequate, the units are quite bulky and the initial cost and map updates are higher than PDAs.
The above list of deficiencies are those that the non dedicated products need to overcome for them to be attractive.
With both PDAs and tablets you will not buy an off the shelf solution. For these products to be effective you require an inquisitive mind and a lack of techno phobia.
I have used PDAs a great deal. The best from HP for example offer screens which tolerate sunlight pretty well. If the software is correctly installed and the units treated with care they are surprisingly reliable and a lot can be done to preserve their reliability in flight.. Moreover they “re-boot” readily and quickly. I use a HP4700 with PFMS installed on a SD card and a bluetooth modem. The SD card is taped to stop it “popping” out, the HP has an extended battery fitted and the volatile memory is backed up to the SD card. That way on a full charge the unit will run for at least four hours on battery alone on maximum brightness. I have never had the PDA fail in flight in around 400 hours of use - that seems pretty reliable to me.
Tablets offer larger screens and more functionality. However it is still a huge challenge to find something light enough, with a good enough screen to read in bright conditions and with adequate internal power.
UMPCs - ultra mobile PCs have found favour with manufacturers recently. Asus, Sony and Samsung all have new products with touch screens. In my opinion the screens of the Asus and Sony aren’t quite large enough to offer a significant improvement over PDAs. Screen clarity is improved but still not quite as good as the best PDAs and some way short of a G1000 screen. Battery life is poor with none of these offering more that 2 hours (at very best).
So what is the answer?
Despite the poor press PDAs with PFMS do a pretty good job if you are prepared to chose a good PDA and “work” to overcome the more common shortcomings.
There are a few tablets that also do a pretty good job. I have seen the Motion and the Lifebook P1510 has a very good touch sensitive screen of about the right size and converts readily from a “notebook” to a tablet with up to five hours continuos use on maximum brightness with the extended battery. In fact I like the P1510 very much, the screen is almost the perfect size (perhaps it could do with being just a little smaller in its longest dimension), the screen is almost good enough, the convertible tablet provides a good combination of keyboard to touch screen display and it is light and not to deep (in thickness). With a better daylight screen 15cm square form and 2 cm thickness with PFMS it would be perfect!
In so far as maps are concerned it seems to me the maps should cover not only the UK but Western Europe. This should ensure commercial viability.
The DAFIF aeronautical database was closed to the public domain last year. That means there is no public domain digital information available. In consequence providers will either use commercial suppliers such as Jep who provide Europe wide coverage, the CAA who provide UK coverage or PocketFMS.
Jep is more costly both initially and on an ongoing basis if the software is kept up to date. In consequence its use is restricted to dedicated aviation products such as those offered by Garmin. Memory map has the limitations already discussed here.
So far as I am aware PocketFMS is the only other European source that has managed to maintain an “independent” supply of Europe wide aviation maps although even they are now about to charge users.
In my opinion PFMS maps are superb. They are now supported by a band a enthusiastic and dedicated users who have a vested interest in their accuracy. Despite some comment on here to the contrary the original DAFIF maps were very accurate and contained only the odd “error”, errors which were well documented on the PFMS forum.
Anyone who wishes to use a non dedicated moving map product would do well to have a look at the PFMS web site.
The issue of suitable hardware has also been discussed.
In an ideal world a moving map GPS should provide the reliability that would leave the user confident to use the system IFR. There are a few panel mounted products that meet that requirement. Garmin’s G1000 system is in my view superb, with excellent redundancy in terms of its dual interchangeable displays, superb view ability and robustness. It comes at a price. Integras system is in my view less good. The user interface is fussy and personally I don’t like the lack of screen redundancy.
Units like the GNS-430 are excellent but are more orientated towards IFR operations and do not provide the same situational detail as the G1000 or Integra displays.
Units such as the G-496, PDAs, and tablets all compete for the same ground in providing portable non certified moving map displays that offer broad situational information and en route navigation. They all have to overcome a few common hurdles - accurate and clear maps which can be regularly updated on a cost effective basis, screens that are sufficiently large and readable in sun light, and a reasonable user interface.
In my opinion most of the dedicated portable offerings do the job. Their greatest drawbacks are that their screens are a little small, their internal power supply is unlikely to be adequate, the units are quite bulky and the initial cost and map updates are higher than PDAs.
The above list of deficiencies are those that the non dedicated products need to overcome for them to be attractive.
With both PDAs and tablets you will not buy an off the shelf solution. For these products to be effective you require an inquisitive mind and a lack of techno phobia.
I have used PDAs a great deal. The best from HP for example offer screens which tolerate sunlight pretty well. If the software is correctly installed and the units treated with care they are surprisingly reliable and a lot can be done to preserve their reliability in flight.. Moreover they “re-boot” readily and quickly. I use a HP4700 with PFMS installed on a SD card and a bluetooth modem. The SD card is taped to stop it “popping” out, the HP has an extended battery fitted and the volatile memory is backed up to the SD card. That way on a full charge the unit will run for at least four hours on battery alone on maximum brightness. I have never had the PDA fail in flight in around 400 hours of use - that seems pretty reliable to me.
Tablets offer larger screens and more functionality. However it is still a huge challenge to find something light enough, with a good enough screen to read in bright conditions and with adequate internal power.
UMPCs - ultra mobile PCs have found favour with manufacturers recently. Asus, Sony and Samsung all have new products with touch screens. In my opinion the screens of the Asus and Sony aren’t quite large enough to offer a significant improvement over PDAs. Screen clarity is improved but still not quite as good as the best PDAs and some way short of a G1000 screen. Battery life is poor with none of these offering more that 2 hours (at very best).
So what is the answer?
Despite the poor press PDAs with PFMS do a pretty good job if you are prepared to chose a good PDA and “work” to overcome the more common shortcomings.
There are a few tablets that also do a pretty good job. I have seen the Motion and the Lifebook P1510 has a very good touch sensitive screen of about the right size and converts readily from a “notebook” to a tablet with up to five hours continuos use on maximum brightness with the extended battery. In fact I like the P1510 very much, the screen is almost the perfect size (perhaps it could do with being just a little smaller in its longest dimension), the screen is almost good enough, the convertible tablet provides a good combination of keyboard to touch screen display and it is light and not to deep (in thickness). With a better daylight screen 15cm square form and 2 cm thickness with PFMS it would be perfect!
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I can right click to get airport information in Memory Map 2004, I simply put the cursor over the desired airfield, right click, in the menu 'Maps at Cursor' left click on 'CAA EGxx xxxxx'. Great for taxying at Manchester, never get lost...
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Interesting discussion indeed, Fuji.
PFMS confirms what I say about VFR charts not being any kind of rocket science. The CAA is simply backward in the way they approach it. However, any product would be useless unless it did Europe too and thus discussing the CAA is a bit of a dead end.
One needs a unified approach for Europe. Jepp have this with their VFR/GPS 1:500k charts, £200 for the CD. It runs under Flitestar (which is purely a ground based flight planning program, with no moving map capability). It also runs under Flitemap which is Flitestar but with a moving map function, but Jepp dropped FM in 2005. I don't know why but it is almost certainly either because they wanted to push everybody towards their current Jeppview/Flitedeck product (which is a cut-down version of Flitemap but including approach plates), or they found "something" in FM which could be a potential legal liability. So, in short, there is now no way to run these charts as a moving map unless you pick up an old copy of FM
Luckily FM is still updated with FS updates, and they continue.
Every major national CAA does their own VFR charts, all done in different ways, and none (except USA) available electronically.
It's going to get harder from now on. I believe DAFIF data contained controlled airspace / danger area shapes, as a digitally readable coordinate list, and this could be fed directly into a flight planning program. Now, someone will have to wade through the AIPs and see which numbers have changed
This plays into the hands of Jepp of course and it would not suprise me if at least some CAAs have done a $$$ deal with Jepp to allow Jepp to use their "copyright" AIP data, in return for which they make it hard for others to enter the market. The Australian case (where the CAA sued Jepp for copyright infringement of their AIP data, and then quietly settled) is a likely example of this. If true, it would be truly disgraceful in a field where the word "safety" is used as a wedge to get every stupid reg pushed through. But this would be normal practice in the corporate game, so we should not be suprised.
ICAO should mandate every CAA to publish their CAS as a machine readable coordinate list.
Eurocontrol have without a doubt done this... somehow. If you look at their Skyview java product you can immediately see that they have a database of everything, covering Europe and more, and SV is just a viewer for the database. It's a pretty useless tool for anything practical IMHO. I've tried using it to generate IFR enroute charts (which I could georeference and run as a backup GPS moving map) but there is no means to generate the a large output file needed. One could use it to generate VFR charts too but they would more closely resemble the (photo-like) output of google earth with the stuff superimposed on it. They don't reply to emails either.
However I am sure everybody in the flight planning software business has now moved from DAFIF over to this data, also available via EAD, and is busy producing reports of navaids etc.
So, the data is there to produce VFR charts, but it needs a bit of an effort. I think one full-time person could generate within 1 year, and then keep up to date, VFR charts for all of Europe, with the underlying database. Let's face it, Navbox does it with one man and he also runs a pilot shop. They just haven't got the VFR chart details, and the product has been frozen for some years.
I've just bought a Garmin 496, mainly for use (connected to the intercom audio input) as a TAWS device for IFR. It's nice enough but for real use the screen is way too small compared to an 8" tablet.
I wish the Avmap EKP IV did the same TAWS as the G496; it has a much better bigger screen. But it has close to zero support, despite being made in Italy.
Garmin are going to take over the world eventually and it would not suprise me if they get shot of Jepp data one day. They already don't use it for terrain elevations; they use the SRTM data for that and very effectively too.
PFMS confirms what I say about VFR charts not being any kind of rocket science. The CAA is simply backward in the way they approach it. However, any product would be useless unless it did Europe too and thus discussing the CAA is a bit of a dead end.
One needs a unified approach for Europe. Jepp have this with their VFR/GPS 1:500k charts, £200 for the CD. It runs under Flitestar (which is purely a ground based flight planning program, with no moving map capability). It also runs under Flitemap which is Flitestar but with a moving map function, but Jepp dropped FM in 2005. I don't know why but it is almost certainly either because they wanted to push everybody towards their current Jeppview/Flitedeck product (which is a cut-down version of Flitemap but including approach plates), or they found "something" in FM which could be a potential legal liability. So, in short, there is now no way to run these charts as a moving map unless you pick up an old copy of FM
Luckily FM is still updated with FS updates, and they continue.Every major national CAA does their own VFR charts, all done in different ways, and none (except USA) available electronically.
It's going to get harder from now on. I believe DAFIF data contained controlled airspace / danger area shapes, as a digitally readable coordinate list, and this could be fed directly into a flight planning program. Now, someone will have to wade through the AIPs and see which numbers have changed
This plays into the hands of Jepp of course and it would not suprise me if at least some CAAs have done a $$$ deal with Jepp to allow Jepp to use their "copyright" AIP data, in return for which they make it hard for others to enter the market. The Australian case (where the CAA sued Jepp for copyright infringement of their AIP data, and then quietly settled) is a likely example of this. If true, it would be truly disgraceful in a field where the word "safety" is used as a wedge to get every stupid reg pushed through. But this would be normal practice in the corporate game, so we should not be suprised.
ICAO should mandate every CAA to publish their CAS as a machine readable coordinate list.
Eurocontrol have without a doubt done this... somehow. If you look at their Skyview java product you can immediately see that they have a database of everything, covering Europe and more, and SV is just a viewer for the database. It's a pretty useless tool for anything practical IMHO. I've tried using it to generate IFR enroute charts (which I could georeference and run as a backup GPS moving map) but there is no means to generate the a large output file needed. One could use it to generate VFR charts too but they would more closely resemble the (photo-like) output of google earth with the stuff superimposed on it. They don't reply to emails either.
However I am sure everybody in the flight planning software business has now moved from DAFIF over to this data, also available via EAD, and is busy producing reports of navaids etc.
So, the data is there to produce VFR charts, but it needs a bit of an effort. I think one full-time person could generate within 1 year, and then keep up to date, VFR charts for all of Europe, with the underlying database. Let's face it, Navbox does it with one man and he also runs a pilot shop. They just haven't got the VFR chart details, and the product has been frozen for some years.
I've just bought a Garmin 496, mainly for use (connected to the intercom audio input) as a TAWS device for IFR. It's nice enough but for real use the screen is way too small compared to an 8" tablet.
I wish the Avmap EKP IV did the same TAWS as the G496; it has a much better bigger screen. But it has close to zero support, despite being made in Italy.
Garmin are going to take over the world eventually and it would not suprise me if they get shot of Jepp data one day. They already don't use it for terrain elevations; they use the SRTM data for that and very effectively too.
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Airservices Australia sought to establish copyright over the information in the Australian AIP in a court case filed in 2003.
I don't know whether that case is still in progress but interestingly in July 2006 Airservices Australia were ordered by the Federal Court to pay the defendants' costs in respect of certain work.
AFIK no attempt has been made by UK AIS or the UK CAA to assert copyright on their data.
Mike
I don't know whether that case is still in progress but interestingly in July 2006 Airservices Australia were ordered by the Federal Court to pay the defendants' costs in respect of certain work.
COSTS – where substantial delay in proceedings caused by numerous attempts at amending the Application and Statement of Claim, directions hearings have been held which should not have been necessary and interlocutory steps taken and applications brought unnecessarily given the changes to the pleadings.
Held: the costs thrown away should be paid by the applicant forthwith.
Held: the costs thrown away should be paid by the applicant forthwith.
Mike
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AFIK no attempt has been made by UK AIS or the UK CAA to assert copyright on their data.
IMHO they would be hard pushed to do so, given the stuff has been available freely via Eurocontrol for years.
Am I right that Australia used to do a printed-only AIP? Like Greece does, to this day. Lot easier to copyright that.
IMHO they would be hard pushed to do so, given the stuff has been available freely via Eurocontrol for years.
Am I right that Australia used to do a printed-only AIP? Like Greece does, to this day. Lot easier to copyright that.
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I have very recently bought the Flymap PDA package. Having only flown with it once thus far, its only my first impression but I am over the moon with it.
The size of screen is fine for the speed I fly at (100 kts cruise) and the Clarity of the CAA 1/2 mil chart installed on it is spot on when zoomed in(allowing you to see about 10 miles ahead which I find fine).
Someone mentioned danger area shown as green.... All airspace reservations are displayed as green if they are in your vicinity. If your track is going to take you into the area, it will turn red. It will also tell you when you are going to enter the airsapce on the bottom right of the screen and as you enter the information moves over to the bottom left of the screen indiacting you are now in it.
You can plan routes on it no problem and pull up airfield diagrams from pooleys on it.
Yes it does display your GS, current heading, track to WP, time to WP Time to destination etc
I have made a small metal kneeboard & mount it onto that (via velcro) and it holds a GPS signal well with its internal GPS receiver.
The Flymap PDA used in combination with my paper chart seems to be the perfect combination for my UK VFR flying.
Very very pleased with it & with the helpfullness of Will at Flymap.
Well worth a look dependant on the type / speed of flying you do
DD
The size of screen is fine for the speed I fly at (100 kts cruise) and the Clarity of the CAA 1/2 mil chart installed on it is spot on when zoomed in(allowing you to see about 10 miles ahead which I find fine).
Someone mentioned danger area shown as green.... All airspace reservations are displayed as green if they are in your vicinity. If your track is going to take you into the area, it will turn red. It will also tell you when you are going to enter the airsapce on the bottom right of the screen and as you enter the information moves over to the bottom left of the screen indiacting you are now in it.
You can plan routes on it no problem and pull up airfield diagrams from pooleys on it.
Yes it does display your GS, current heading, track to WP, time to WP Time to destination etc
I have made a small metal kneeboard & mount it onto that (via velcro) and it holds a GPS signal well with its internal GPS receiver.
The Flymap PDA used in combination with my paper chart seems to be the perfect combination for my UK VFR flying.
Very very pleased with it & with the helpfullness of Will at Flymap.
Well worth a look dependant on the type / speed of flying you do
DD
Last edited by Diddley Dee; 24th Feb 2007 at 16:08.
