VFR Charts on-line?
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Probably the vertical extents of airspace are clearer on the printed chart, if not a lot else (in the 496 context; a very good product indeed).
Also does the 496 finally depict Class A UK airways correctly? The Jepp GPS data usually shows them as just thin lines.
I believe that PFMS can run any chart you can provide as a graphic file and georeference it - same as Oziexplorer. If so, then one could run the CAA charts under PFMS. To get them into a common-format graphic file (TIFF etc), you either have to get them scanned (by a bureau with an A0 scanner which doesn't ask too many questions about copyright - this is usually v. expensive) or find a way to print to a graphic file from within Memory Map (which is possible, but I won't describe it in an open forum).
The CAA isn't doing pilots any favours with its policy.
Also does the 496 finally depict Class A UK airways correctly? The Jepp GPS data usually shows them as just thin lines.
I believe that PFMS can run any chart you can provide as a graphic file and georeference it - same as Oziexplorer. If so, then one could run the CAA charts under PFMS. To get them into a common-format graphic file (TIFF etc), you either have to get them scanned (by a bureau with an A0 scanner which doesn't ask too many questions about copyright - this is usually v. expensive) or find a way to print to a graphic file from within Memory Map (which is possible, but I won't describe it in an open forum).
The CAA isn't doing pilots any favours with its policy.
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I am monitoring the development of Tablet PCs with interest. They have taken a long time to establish any kind of market share, but the pace of development does now seem to be accelerating.
If anyone is interested I have a couple more of these I was going to stick on ebay. Brought out a couple of years ago but with apparently the best sunlight readable screen on the market (same as the current ST5000 series). Google will provide the tech specs.
When I can buy a thin tablet with a 10" sunlight readable display and large FLASH drive for < £1000 then I will give it very serious consideration!
Anyway I'll post an update once I've had a chance to put it through it's paces.
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Flymap does look very interesting indeed. I have contacted them to see if they have plans to bring out a Windows version to be used on Tablet PCs. I will let you know when/if I hear back.
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From what I can see, Flymap runs the CAA charts, or the Jepp raster charts.
You can do that with any tablet PC, running Memory Map (for the CAA charts) or the old Jepp Flitemap (for the raster charts).
I guess Flymap is going to be cheaper of the two, compared with typical tablet PCs fitted with the (usually optional but essential) polarised sunlight-viewable screen, but it is a dedicated product whereas a tablet PC can be used for other stuff.
You can do that with any tablet PC, running Memory Map (for the CAA charts) or the old Jepp Flitemap (for the raster charts).
I guess Flymap is going to be cheaper of the two, compared with typical tablet PCs fitted with the (usually optional but essential) polarised sunlight-viewable screen, but it is a dedicated product whereas a tablet PC can be used for other stuff.
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I've just picked up a brand new (still sealed in box) Tatum tablet PC (900mhz 20gig) with wireless network and a biometric finger print log in for £160 from ebay.
I can use a compact flash GPS (£20) for a GPS backup, but I usually just use the USB feed from my Garmin 296.
Both work very well with MemoryMap.
I do have difficulty looking at the screen in direct sunlight though, but apart form that It's a nice big moving map display for less than a couple of hundred quid.
And you can play solitaire whilst waiting for the weather to improve.
Rans,
www.FlightForLife.co.uk
I can use a compact flash GPS (£20) for a GPS backup, but I usually just use the USB feed from my Garmin 296.
Both work very well with MemoryMap.
I do have difficulty looking at the screen in direct sunlight though, but apart form that It's a nice big moving map display for less than a couple of hundred quid.
And you can play solitaire whilst waiting for the weather to improve.
Rans,
www.FlightForLife.co.uk
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I've heard back from Flymap - apparently they considered bringing out a version for Tablet PCs but decided not to because, among other things, 'apparently' they break as soon as you put them inside a cockpit!
News to me. As long they aren't taken over FL100 in an unpressurised cabin they should be fine. It's a shame Solid State Disk Drives are still so expensive though.
Rans Flyer:
That does seem like a good deal. Although a highly sunlight-readable display does add quite a bit to the cost of these tablets. I've never heard of Tatum but for that price it has got to be worth taking a flyer (no pun intended!).
IO540:
I agree Memory Map gives you the CAA charts, but Flymap superimposes flight plans, provides weather data, closest airfields, i.e. all the usual goodies but using the CAA charts. Would be an ideal option for me. In the meantime I may have a go at converting my CAA charts and use them with PocketFMS on my Tablet...
News to me. As long they aren't taken over FL100 in an unpressurised cabin they should be fine. It's a shame Solid State Disk Drives are still so expensive though.
Rans Flyer:
That does seem like a good deal. Although a highly sunlight-readable display does add quite a bit to the cost of these tablets. I've never heard of Tatum but for that price it has got to be worth taking a flyer (no pun intended!).
IO540:
I agree Memory Map gives you the CAA charts, but Flymap superimposes flight plans, provides weather data, closest airfields, i.e. all the usual goodies but using the CAA charts. Would be an ideal option for me. In the meantime I may have a go at converting my CAA charts and use them with PocketFMS on my Tablet...
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but Flymap superimposes flight plans, provides weather data, closest airfields, i.e. all the usual goodies but using the CAA charts
Have you actually seen this work?
The problem is that the CAA doesn't appear to let out their database in a "database" form; they let it out only as a raster image. This is what MM gets, which is why they product is just a dumb raster display. MM has no concept of airports, etc. except possibly via the georeferenced airport diagrams which are included with MM.
It's only the Jepp vector database that allows you to "right click" on an airport and see its properties, etc. If Flymap does that too, I'd very much like to know how they did that. The data has to come from somewhere. The UK AIP is not released in a machine readable form and neither is anybody else's (except probably the USA) and this is what keeps Jepp in business.
Have you actually seen this work?
The problem is that the CAA doesn't appear to let out their database in a "database" form; they let it out only as a raster image. This is what MM gets, which is why they product is just a dumb raster display. MM has no concept of airports, etc. except possibly via the georeferenced airport diagrams which are included with MM.
It's only the Jepp vector database that allows you to "right click" on an airport and see its properties, etc. If Flymap does that too, I'd very much like to know how they did that. The data has to come from somewhere. The UK AIP is not released in a machine readable form and neither is anybody else's (except probably the USA) and this is what keeps Jepp in business.
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I bought a MIO P550 PDA with internal GPS recently. I am having trouble getting the GPS to come on line with MM software. Can anyone who has used a P550 with MM confirm what the GPS settings should be as there is no mention of the GPS in the manual?
Jucky
Jucky
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I don't know this PDA but the way they all work is that the GPS data appears on a serial port of some kind, and you have to config MM to use that port. It's under Menu -> GPS -> Setup.
If you have multiple ports on the PDA (more than likely) you have to try them all in turn. There is no automatic way for software to detect which port happens to have the right data (NMEA) coming up on it.
If you have multiple ports on the PDA (more than likely) you have to try them all in turn. There is no automatic way for software to detect which port happens to have the right data (NMEA) coming up on it.
Have you actually seen this work?
It was developed by a pilot and a software engineer, I met them both a couple of years ago when Flymap was very new and they showed me how it worked and work it really does.
I have used most types of GPS at one time or another and I don't think Flymap can be beaten - whether it is equalled is a moot point but given the choice I'd take Flymap with me every time.
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The problem is that the CAA doesn't appear to let out their database in a "database" form; they let it out only as a raster image.
Centrica, owners of the AA, settled out of court for 20 million pounds when caught nicking data, details here.
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The problem that we have found with tablet PCs is basically three-fold.
The first is that although hard disks may be designed to operate up to FL100, the vibration in a light fixed wing or heli causes most hard disks to fail in a relatively short period of time. It's a completely different proposal to putting such a machine into an airliner. There are companies in the industry who have invested quite a lot of money in trying to make a system which solves this problem, but none that we are aware of have succeeded. Obviously we have to be sure that the hardware is reliable before we launch it.
The second problem is one of the screens. Sure, there are a few screens out there that will do the job - i.e. show the display clearly in a vibrating cockpit in the sunshine, but most of the touch-screens won't cut it. Because having a touch-screen is very important to our systems and we think makes a big difference to usability in the cockpit, this is a big obstacle.
The third problem is finding a system with the right combination of hardware. It's one thing to find a machine with the right screen or the right storage but finding one which ticks all of the necessary boxes is a totally different idea.
We are looking at tablet PCs and have been for a while. We actually have a version of the software that we can use for testing them, but until we find one that really works, we aren't going to be releasing it.
The first is that although hard disks may be designed to operate up to FL100, the vibration in a light fixed wing or heli causes most hard disks to fail in a relatively short period of time. It's a completely different proposal to putting such a machine into an airliner. There are companies in the industry who have invested quite a lot of money in trying to make a system which solves this problem, but none that we are aware of have succeeded. Obviously we have to be sure that the hardware is reliable before we launch it.
The second problem is one of the screens. Sure, there are a few screens out there that will do the job - i.e. show the display clearly in a vibrating cockpit in the sunshine, but most of the touch-screens won't cut it. Because having a touch-screen is very important to our systems and we think makes a big difference to usability in the cockpit, this is a big obstacle.
The third problem is finding a system with the right combination of hardware. It's one thing to find a machine with the right screen or the right storage but finding one which ticks all of the necessary boxes is a totally different idea.
We are looking at tablet PCs and have been for a while. We actually have a version of the software that we can use for testing them, but until we find one that really works, we aren't going to be releasing it.
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The airspace data is in the AIP and publicly available
True but isn't machine readable, so the only way to use this data is to have a little man sitting in a room with the AIP and tranferring it manually. The best you can do is a copy/paste from the PDF.
They even include "false" information in maps that would not be shown up by a survey of the ground, enabling them to prove in Court that their work has been stolen.
I don't think they need to; there are so many errors on an O/S chart that they don't need to do this. The shape of almost every clump of trees, or a city, bears only passing resemblance to reality and many are out of date by a decade or two - this is obvious when using a 1:25k for walking outdoors.
The point is that the CAA does not need to use the expensive and tightly controlled O/S data. The vast majority of the stuff on CAA charts is either public domain, or can be obtained elsewhere much more reasonably, or has not changed for millenia (and is public domain).
I can only speculate that the CAA have gone to the O/S so they have a substantial body to fall back on if there was an incident. Even this seems far fetched however, since the charts are VFR and VFR is supposed to be visual, so the scope for litigation following an accident is negligible, IMHO.
This in turn screws pilots who have to make do with a chart anything up to a year old, and not available electronically except from the likes of MM who charge such an exorbitant price that few UK PPLs will pay it.
True but isn't machine readable, so the only way to use this data is to have a little man sitting in a room with the AIP and tranferring it manually. The best you can do is a copy/paste from the PDF.
They even include "false" information in maps that would not be shown up by a survey of the ground, enabling them to prove in Court that their work has been stolen.
I don't think they need to; there are so many errors on an O/S chart that they don't need to do this. The shape of almost every clump of trees, or a city, bears only passing resemblance to reality and many are out of date by a decade or two - this is obvious when using a 1:25k for walking outdoors.
The point is that the CAA does not need to use the expensive and tightly controlled O/S data. The vast majority of the stuff on CAA charts is either public domain, or can be obtained elsewhere much more reasonably, or has not changed for millenia (and is public domain).
I can only speculate that the CAA have gone to the O/S so they have a substantial body to fall back on if there was an incident. Even this seems far fetched however, since the charts are VFR and VFR is supposed to be visual, so the scope for litigation following an accident is negligible, IMHO.
This in turn screws pilots who have to make do with a chart anything up to a year old, and not available electronically except from the likes of MM who charge such an exorbitant price that few UK PPLs will pay it.
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IO
I suspect that the truth of the matter is that most map-makers licence their data from the OS. The fee for that will be negotiated according to the use. Memory-Map no doubt have have to pay, which accounts for the price.
If you look here for example you will see that A-Z mapping is based on OS data and subject to their copyright and from the link I posted earlier you will see that AA maps are based on OS data.
Whatever the source on which the map is based, someone will need to be paid for the data, and the likelyhood is that they in turn will have to pay OS.
There's no getting away from the fact that survey and updating of mapping data is a very expensive operation which is why other mapmakers license OS data rather than flying their own satellites and aerial surveys. There's also a big quality issue. You want the new reservoir or road to appear on the new chart and that means basing your map on data that is subject to constant update, not on 5 year old data.
Given the choice of licensing the data direct from the producer or from a third party I suspect the direct route is cheaper.
The aim of my original post was to show that the problem is not with the CAA but with the negotiation of licensing between OS and the prospective producer of digitised aeronautical charts. Chances are that the total market for UK VFR charts is the real limiting factor.
I suspect that the truth of the matter is that most map-makers licence their data from the OS. The fee for that will be negotiated according to the use. Memory-Map no doubt have have to pay, which accounts for the price.
If you look here for example you will see that A-Z mapping is based on OS data and subject to their copyright and from the link I posted earlier you will see that AA maps are based on OS data.
Whatever the source on which the map is based, someone will need to be paid for the data, and the likelyhood is that they in turn will have to pay OS.
There's no getting away from the fact that survey and updating of mapping data is a very expensive operation which is why other mapmakers license OS data rather than flying their own satellites and aerial surveys. There's also a big quality issue. You want the new reservoir or road to appear on the new chart and that means basing your map on data that is subject to constant update, not on 5 year old data.
Given the choice of licensing the data direct from the producer or from a third party I suspect the direct route is cheaper.
The aim of my original post was to show that the problem is not with the CAA but with the negotiation of licensing between OS and the prospective producer of digitised aeronautical charts. Chances are that the total market for UK VFR charts is the real limiting factor.
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I'm not sure I really understand Flymap's reticence about releasing for Tablet PC. Surely unless they are selling the hardware it is up to the consumer to ensure they have something satisfactory.
Tablet PCs are used widely in the US. There are a few manufacturers that make very sunlight readable screens and mount their hard-drives with anti-vibration mountings. Plus Solid State Hard Disks are now available (although still expensive).
There are plenty of inadequate PocketPCs out there but they still release Pocket Flymap. Same could be said for GPS hardware. It is up to the consumer to get the right hardware to run their product on - noone is going to blame Flymap if their hard drive fails!
Tablet PCs are used widely in the US. There are a few manufacturers that make very sunlight readable screens and mount their hard-drives with anti-vibration mountings. Plus Solid State Hard Disks are now available (although still expensive).
There are plenty of inadequate PocketPCs out there but they still release Pocket Flymap. Same could be said for GPS hardware. It is up to the consumer to get the right hardware to run their product on - noone is going to blame Flymap if their hard drive fails!
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Mike
I suspect that the truth of the matter is that most map-makers licence their data from the OS
I am sure you are right, when it comes to current non-aero data e.g. roads, footpaths, buildings, etc. Compiling that sort of stuff is expensive. Which incidentally is why the likes of TomTom don't use up to date data but use data which is several years old and which comes from non-O/S sources.
But aero data is not such a big deal. For example most of the data needed for VFR can be had from the U.S. ONC charts which are copyright free. If you think how much stuff on a VFR chart is actually important and has changed in the last few years, there isn't much, and none of it (AFAIK) comes from the O/S.
There are lots of little men in Europe (and indeed most other places in the world) who are most unhappy about the Americans mapping out the world, for free, firstly in 2D and more recently with shuttle radar with a horizontal accuracy of 100ft and an an elevation accuracy of 300ft, and making the whole lot available on the internet. But it's here. I've just bought a Garmin 496 handheld which (according to Garmin) uses the SRTM data for its elevation database, to provide uncanningly accurate terrain warnings, comparable to a £13k EGPWS system from Honeywell. Times are changing, and many don't like it.
But we still have good old CAA buying its main data from the O/S, and paying dearly for it. If you upgrade your copy of MM all your old charts stop working, because a stupid O/S licensing requirement says that the software release year must match the O/S chart year (there is a trivial hack for this, fortunately).
I can see why the CAA does it - they don't have a proper charting department; the whole thing is mostly outsourced and the market is too small for them to drastically change everything now. Their printed VFR charts are generally excellent and most UK pilots are far too non-tech to even think about electronic data.
The problem is Euro-wide - everything is copyright, tightly held, and there are powerful commercial interests keeping it that way.
Rant=off
ILOC
I would suggest the reason is that all software released for the "PC" will be ripped off all over the place. So they "dongle" their software by selling it only inside a piece of hardware.
This is without doubt another reason why the CAA charts are not available for a paid download as a TIFF or whatever.
I suspect that the truth of the matter is that most map-makers licence their data from the OS
I am sure you are right, when it comes to current non-aero data e.g. roads, footpaths, buildings, etc. Compiling that sort of stuff is expensive. Which incidentally is why the likes of TomTom don't use up to date data but use data which is several years old and which comes from non-O/S sources.
But aero data is not such a big deal. For example most of the data needed for VFR can be had from the U.S. ONC charts which are copyright free. If you think how much stuff on a VFR chart is actually important and has changed in the last few years, there isn't much, and none of it (AFAIK) comes from the O/S.
There are lots of little men in Europe (and indeed most other places in the world) who are most unhappy about the Americans mapping out the world, for free, firstly in 2D and more recently with shuttle radar with a horizontal accuracy of 100ft and an an elevation accuracy of 300ft, and making the whole lot available on the internet. But it's here. I've just bought a Garmin 496 handheld which (according to Garmin) uses the SRTM data for its elevation database, to provide uncanningly accurate terrain warnings, comparable to a £13k EGPWS system from Honeywell. Times are changing, and many don't like it.
But we still have good old CAA buying its main data from the O/S, and paying dearly for it. If you upgrade your copy of MM all your old charts stop working, because a stupid O/S licensing requirement says that the software release year must match the O/S chart year (there is a trivial hack for this, fortunately).
I can see why the CAA does it - they don't have a proper charting department; the whole thing is mostly outsourced and the market is too small for them to drastically change everything now. Their printed VFR charts are generally excellent and most UK pilots are far too non-tech to even think about electronic data.
The problem is Euro-wide - everything is copyright, tightly held, and there are powerful commercial interests keeping it that way.
Rant=off
ILOC
I would suggest the reason is that all software released for the "PC" will be ripped off all over the place. So they "dongle" their software by selling it only inside a piece of hardware.
This is without doubt another reason why the CAA charts are not available for a paid download as a TIFF or whatever.
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I can see why the CAA does it - they don't have a proper charting department; the whole thing is mostly outsourced and the market is too small for them to drastically change everything now. Their printed VFR charts are generally excellent and most UK pilots are far too non-tech to even think about electronic data.
I've just had a call from a friend of mine who happens to be the CAA's VFR Chart Editor, a Cartographer by profession and who holds a PPL.
The process works like this:- OS provide the basemap to the CAA's charting department in a digital read-only format that they are unable to manipulate. They then produce the aviation overlay, also in digital format, which is then passed back to OS, who print it. Lead time for printing as around 6 weeks from close-off for changes to publication date.
Memory Map get the complete chart in digital format from OS, complete with the aviation overlay, again in read-only digital format (i.e. they can't manipulate the data). Cost of that is a matter for negotiation between the parties and no doubt others could obtain the data as well if they want to negotiate with OS.
If as you say "the whole thing is mostly outsourced " then the Department is clearly being employed to sit on their backsides with nothing to do all day. I'm sure they'd be delighted to join you at a convenient hostelry, where I suspect it's your round!
Mike
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What I do with Memory Map to make it a little more useful is to import waypoints for all licenced airfields, navaids and fixes / intersections, which I get electronically for free from the FAA. This gives MM a sort of "Direct to" capability:
(As an example)....
(As an example)....
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Mike - if the process is as you describe then most of the work is outsourced - to the O/S.
As for the "aviation" overlay, if you look at how much that changes from one year to the next, it's perhaps a fraction of a full-time job, no more than that.
I wasn't aware that the CAA get the whole non-aviation basemap from outside, ready to use. It does explain why nothing is happening on the "electronic VFR charts" front. It would take a massive effort on the part of the CAA to being this task in-house, and compile a basemap from other (preferably mostly public domain) sources.
As for the "aviation" overlay, if you look at how much that changes from one year to the next, it's perhaps a fraction of a full-time job, no more than that.
I wasn't aware that the CAA get the whole non-aviation basemap from outside, ready to use. It does explain why nothing is happening on the "electronic VFR charts" front. It would take a massive effort on the part of the CAA to being this task in-house, and compile a basemap from other (preferably mostly public domain) sources.