Is this for real?
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Mono's probably like me .... There was no human factors test when we got our PPL's. So we can do what we like when it comes to that sort of stuff 
VMC? Doesn't that mean Very Merry Christmas?
SS
VMC? Doesn't that mean Very Merry Christmas?SS
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I saw this in the reports too and wondered the same thing. However, if there was a language problem, it all makes a bit more sense.
I preferred Mono's first post, though...
I preferred Mono's first post, though...
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I guess a highly stressed pilot - I'm sure we've all been there, not doing things we should because of pressure. Some just don't handle it as well... But at least he tried radio comms. It could have been far worse had he not.
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We're imperturbable steely-eyed sky-gods, worshipped by adoring lovelies. We look down scornfully on mere mortals who have the temerity to aspire to emulate us. We were born fully fledged and were never students. We never got lost, overloaded or panicky.
We have no sympathy with those less able than ourselves. If someone falls off a horse let him lie there, he should never have got on it in the first place. If someone has a problem, ridicule him, that way he'll give up.
As far as I can see this guy was stressed and did the right thing. Top marks to him.
Mike
We have no sympathy with those less able than ourselves. If someone falls off a horse let him lie there, he should never have got on it in the first place. If someone has a problem, ridicule him, that way he'll give up.
As far as I can see this guy was stressed and did the right thing. Top marks to him.
Mike
The Original Whirly
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Even if it wasn't a student, an overloaded pilot in a state of panic can do strange things
As a solo student, I got lost, called Shawbury, and when asked to squawk ident, had to tell them I was sorry but I didn't know how to do that. I'd been shown how to squawk a code, but not ident, and in my tired and overloaded situation (I'd been flying for about two hours), I couldn't work it out. Did that make me an awful person who should have been banned from the skies?
People do still learn to fly in aircraft without transponders. And has it ever occurred to you that maybe the pilot didn't understand the term VMC because he didn't hear it properly? It's bloody hard to understand radio transmissions when you start flying. Don't any of you have memories? Or maybe in his overloaded state he actually forgot the term! Dear me, a hanging offence of course. One can't fly without knowing every acronym, can one?
Full marks to this guy for calling D & D and coping. Now he needs a little more training, which is no big deal. We all have things to learn.
No marks whatsoever to some of the critical, unsympathetic people on this thread...and if any of you are instructors, I really feel for your poor students if this is the level of your understanding of human nature.
(Grrrrrrr.....what have they done with the smilie for really, really mad?)
Incidentally, Mono, I found your takeoff very, very funny.
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This is why I said one should see the instructor and not the student.
In this age, nobody should get a PPL not knowing what a transponder is. if they do, the PPL probably won't be much good to them.
I think these matters should be discussed - within civilised bounds of course. There are several reasons for this:
ATC is generally very professional and (UK ATC certainly) will always handle these situations very calmly. BUT when the man retires to his teabreak at the end of his shift, with his nerves a bit more stretched than they would be otherwise, he will share his experience with his mates, and with the passage of time this results in prejudices building up within the profession.
I went to a NATS presentation (West Drayton) a while ago and - even though these are IFR sector (enroute) controllers and not tower or FIS/OCAS controllers - the institutional bias against certain groups who are just a bit less perfect than "British Airways Public School Accent Nigel" was quite blatent. Bizjets got slagged off big-time; it's unsuprising that these have more level busts since they often fly to random locations at short notice so the pilots have less time to learn the route by rota. Foreign airlines likewise; I got the impression that if NATS got their way they would ban all foreign planes from UK airspace. They certainly wanted to ban all single pilot jet ops, claiming this would be CAA policy; this would be an eventual disaster for all private IFR because modern small jets are no harder to fly than so much other old stuff that nobody questions.
Fortunately the people who expressed these views were not policymakers but there is no prize for guessing what sort of things get discussed over the beer with a visitor from the CAA or the DfT.
In time, this sort of thing will work its way up into policymaking, which is obviously not going to help private GA.
The other thing is that a lot of "lower-level controllers" in the UK, notably some A/G types at certain airfields, have zero patience and will give a pilot who is not quite on top of things a hard time. Totally out of order but it happens.
There is a fair number of tower controllers in certain places abroad who will do the same to a UK pilot who is under pressure and cannot find some VRP.
I guess we will always differ on how much a PPL should be taught...
In this age, nobody should get a PPL not knowing what a transponder is. if they do, the PPL probably won't be much good to them.
I think these matters should be discussed - within civilised bounds of course. There are several reasons for this:
ATC is generally very professional and (UK ATC certainly) will always handle these situations very calmly. BUT when the man retires to his teabreak at the end of his shift, with his nerves a bit more stretched than they would be otherwise, he will share his experience with his mates, and with the passage of time this results in prejudices building up within the profession.
I went to a NATS presentation (West Drayton) a while ago and - even though these are IFR sector (enroute) controllers and not tower or FIS/OCAS controllers - the institutional bias against certain groups who are just a bit less perfect than "British Airways Public School Accent Nigel" was quite blatent. Bizjets got slagged off big-time; it's unsuprising that these have more level busts since they often fly to random locations at short notice so the pilots have less time to learn the route by rota. Foreign airlines likewise; I got the impression that if NATS got their way they would ban all foreign planes from UK airspace. They certainly wanted to ban all single pilot jet ops, claiming this would be CAA policy; this would be an eventual disaster for all private IFR because modern small jets are no harder to fly than so much other old stuff that nobody questions.
Fortunately the people who expressed these views were not policymakers but there is no prize for guessing what sort of things get discussed over the beer with a visitor from the CAA or the DfT.
In time, this sort of thing will work its way up into policymaking, which is obviously not going to help private GA.
The other thing is that a lot of "lower-level controllers" in the UK, notably some A/G types at certain airfields, have zero patience and will give a pilot who is not quite on top of things a hard time. Totally out of order but it happens.
There is a fair number of tower controllers in certain places abroad who will do the same to a UK pilot who is under pressure and cannot find some VRP.
I guess we will always differ on how much a PPL should be taught...
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IO540,
Interesting post. I don't believe NATS at West drayton are against people who are any less perfect than Nigel etc (they are not perfect either) BUT are you saying that it is alright for pilots to bust levels on step climb SIDS because they are foriegn (most of the foriegn airlines are regular scheduled flights) or business pilots who don't fly to the LTMA very often?
The amount of effort that has gone in to trying to stop level busts in this area is enormous and still they happen. The biggest reason for level busts in the UK at the moment is when a crew acknowledge an instruction correctly and get it wrong. (Perhaps something to do with SOPs)
The stats also show that for SID level busts, far and away the biggest group getting it wrong are the business aviation community.
I personaaly have never heard an ATCO at West drayton say that single pilot IFR ops should be banned. All any atco wants is for there not to be any level busts or errors that could lose separation.
Interesting post. I don't believe NATS at West drayton are against people who are any less perfect than Nigel etc (they are not perfect either) BUT are you saying that it is alright for pilots to bust levels on step climb SIDS because they are foriegn (most of the foriegn airlines are regular scheduled flights) or business pilots who don't fly to the LTMA very often?
The amount of effort that has gone in to trying to stop level busts in this area is enormous and still they happen. The biggest reason for level busts in the UK at the moment is when a crew acknowledge an instruction correctly and get it wrong. (Perhaps something to do with SOPs)
The stats also show that for SID level busts, far and away the biggest group getting it wrong are the business aviation community.
I personaaly have never heard an ATCO at West drayton say that single pilot IFR ops should be banned. All any atco wants is for there not to be any level busts or errors that could lose separation.
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are you saying that it is alright for pilots to bust levels on step climb SIDS because they are foriegn
I don't see how one could infer the above from what I wrote, at all.
I don't see how one could infer the above from what I wrote, at all.
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I am finding this all very hard to believe. You shouldn't fly if u are hungover or dont generally feel up to it.
Not even knowing what a transponder is, is just appauling, its even in the theory exams.
Also, if he doesn't know what VMC means makes me feel so ashamed that we have pilots like this flying around in the UK.
If a pilot cannot handle the pressure, he should seriously reconsider.
I have been under pressure on many flights, but I have kept calm throughout (even during a radio failure on my skills test).
Not even knowing what a transponder is, is just appauling, its even in the theory exams.
Also, if he doesn't know what VMC means makes me feel so ashamed that we have pilots like this flying around in the UK.
If a pilot cannot handle the pressure, he should seriously reconsider.
I have been under pressure on many flights, but I have kept calm throughout (even during a radio failure on my skills test).
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The Original Whirly
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I have been under pressure on many flights, but I have kept calm throughout
Overload doesn't necessarily manifest itself as panic. It's possible to appear quite calm, and think you're behaving quite rationally, but miss things, musunderstand things, not be able to take in everything, etc etc. So your statement above is actually totally meaningless.
And even if you're right, and you do cope well with such situations, what on earth gives you the right to criticise someone who can't? Take it from me, you don't sound like the perfect pilot. You sound like someone with little understanding, either of yourself or anyone else. Someone who needs to grow up! And if it wasn't for your very young age, I'd be considerably less gentle with you than I am, since I'm heartily sick of the blinkered, holier-than-though, aren't-I-wonderful, super-pilot image that so many people on this forum like to project. Oh, for some normal, average, human beings, made of flesh and blood like the rest of us!!!!!!!
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He was a STUDENT pilot.....Cut him some slack & stop wearing out your heartbeats about it. We get to deal with fully qualified pilots too, some of which dont cover themselves in glory either, its all part of flying, we are all fully qualified in performing below par at times.
Regards
DD
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The smell of fear
This pilot did the right thing - so what if he put his foot in his mouth on the radio. D+D once took care of me when I experienced an engine failure and I can assure you that my transmissions were hardly textbook! In fact I am sure I would be very embarrased if I were forced to listen to the tapes again - however when we lose our reserve the communication is often the first thing to go.
I must admit to experiencing a feeling of impending doom during both my fixed wing and helicopter solo cross countries. A rapid splattering type of death seemed imminent and inescapable. Something to do with you suddenly realising you are in charge of a large lump of metal quite far above the safety of terra firma without having an instructor there to save your bacon if it all went pear shaped.
It really doesn't take much extra stress to induce panic when you are trying to aviate and navigate all at once - I think we have all been there, it is fear that keeps us alive.
SB
I must admit to experiencing a feeling of impending doom during both my fixed wing and helicopter solo cross countries. A rapid splattering type of death seemed imminent and inescapable. Something to do with you suddenly realising you are in charge of a large lump of metal quite far above the safety of terra firma without having an instructor there to save your bacon if it all went pear shaped.
It really doesn't take much extra stress to induce panic when you are trying to aviate and navigate all at once - I think we have all been there, it is fear that keeps us alive.
SB
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Super Pilots??
Whirly you are so right !! God forbid us from being human and making mistakes! I work as an ATC chap down south remember taking peeps on their first ever light plane flight to Compton Abbas, called their freq no answer, oh well their not playing landed anyway blind calls......only to find wrong freq dialled up, yet on a regular basis I say their freq to other planes!! Yes perfection is great but flying light planes is not easy and I wish people would remember that. Im a 250 hour IMC-PPL and I flew my renewal the other day with an ex airline training capt and he said I keep the ILS better than most IR peeps do. I know sometimes in our business some people do have more money than brains, but at then end of the day....we are all pilots and should look after each other. Through extra training or experiences shared in the bar.
HAPPY XMAS AND GUID NEW YEAR
HAPPY XMAS AND GUID NEW YEAR