PA28 to Bonanza
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PA28 to Bonanza
Hi,I got my PPL a few months back flying a Piper Cherokee PA28-140 and have a total of 88 flying hours now.I"ve been thinking of getting a conversion onto a Beechcraft Bonanza,is this too big a step up from flying a 140,and should I perhaps wait and built a bit more experience before doing the conversion?Advice appreciated
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I am right now in the process of helping a brand new PPL (about 80 hours) getting checke d out in a Turbo Normalized A36. There are no bad habits to unlearn yet, only new habits to learn, much easier.
You need someone really familiar with the Bonanza, it is not a difficult plane at all but needs experience managing the extra speed and weight.
I would say it would take about 5 hours of local training, and maybe 5 or 10 XC flights to get up to speed.
One thing: we don't do touch and goes in Bonanzas, only full stop and taxi back.
If you can, get in touch with BPPP, via the American Bonanza Society, they can recommend specialized instructors.
You need someone really familiar with the Bonanza, it is not a difficult plane at all but needs experience managing the extra speed and weight.
I would say it would take about 5 hours of local training, and maybe 5 or 10 XC flights to get up to speed.
One thing: we don't do touch and goes in Bonanzas, only full stop and taxi back.
If you can, get in touch with BPPP, via the American Bonanza Society, they can recommend specialized instructors.
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no T&G:
because on pre-1984 models the gear switch is on the right and flaps on the left, on post-1984 models gear is left and flaps are on the right.
During touch and goes, a lot of things happen while traveling down the runway at high speed, usually flaps are fully down and the pilot will be in a hurry to retract them for the next take-off..
If the gear handle is moved to the up position, and the squat switch on the gear is not working then the gear motor starts to turn, it takes about three turns before the nose gear unlocks and can be pushed in with two fingers (when on jacks). Full 50 turns from fully down to fully up takes between 4 and 8 seconds depending on model year, so you can calculate how many seconds for 3 turns before the nose gear is unlocked.
Never touch anything on the runway except the flight controls and throttle, leave flaps and all other switches until clear of runway.
BPPP forbids T&G during training and for good reason. Too many avoidable and expensive gear mishaps.
because on pre-1984 models the gear switch is on the right and flaps on the left, on post-1984 models gear is left and flaps are on the right.
During touch and goes, a lot of things happen while traveling down the runway at high speed, usually flaps are fully down and the pilot will be in a hurry to retract them for the next take-off..
If the gear handle is moved to the up position, and the squat switch on the gear is not working then the gear motor starts to turn, it takes about three turns before the nose gear unlocks and can be pushed in with two fingers (when on jacks). Full 50 turns from fully down to fully up takes between 4 and 8 seconds depending on model year, so you can calculate how many seconds for 3 turns before the nose gear is unlocked.
Never touch anything on the runway except the flight controls and throttle, leave flaps and all other switches until clear of runway.
BPPP forbids T&G during training and for good reason. Too many avoidable and expensive gear mishaps.
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When I had about the same number of hours as you I was offered a check out in a Mooney. I turned it down for the same reasons as you offer - and I regret it to this day. At the time I'd only flown C150/C172/PA28 aircraft and thought it too big a step with so few hours.
25 years later I now have 28 types in my book ranging from the lovely DH82 to a PA31 but I never got the chance to fly a Mooney again..
Yes, the aircraft is more complex, it goes faster and your thinking has to gear up to this. It's your instructor who will tell you if you are pushing beyond your own limitations - you can't guess this beforehand.
Go for it.
25 years later I now have 28 types in my book ranging from the lovely DH82 to a PA31 but I never got the chance to fly a Mooney again..
Yes, the aircraft is more complex, it goes faster and your thinking has to gear up to this. It's your instructor who will tell you if you are pushing beyond your own limitations - you can't guess this beforehand.
Go for it.
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I think the business of converting to a "complex" and faster type is often very much over-done.
If the pilot is going to fly a lot (say 100+hrs/year) then it will all snap into place, probably in 20-30hrs. Especially when he arrives at destination with 10 nm to run, 5000ft to lose and still doing 150kt with a 60kt tailwind
If he is a perpetual low time pilot (say UK average, 10-20hrs/year) then it will probably never snap into place, no matter how good the instructor is.
If he has poor understanding of technical matters then it will also never snap in. I know of some pilots who were perfectly OK at the VFR bimbling level, then got loads of money (loads) and bought something with serious kit in it (not to mention doing 200-300kt) and, 100-200hrs later flying with an instructor (he enjoyed it, going all around Europe) had to chuck it in.
A Bonanza is not a rocket; thinks just happen a little bit faster at 150kt than in a C152, and one needs to actually understand how the stuff in it works. Most people get a PPL in say a C152 without ever understanding anything about avionics, radio nav, engine management, speed management, etc.
I never did circuits in the TB20. It's bad for the engine. The gear-up situation is OK if you have somebody in RHS watching it, but you wouldn't ever want to knacker your own engine.
If the pilot is going to fly a lot (say 100+hrs/year) then it will all snap into place, probably in 20-30hrs. Especially when he arrives at destination with 10 nm to run, 5000ft to lose and still doing 150kt with a 60kt tailwind
If he is a perpetual low time pilot (say UK average, 10-20hrs/year) then it will probably never snap into place, no matter how good the instructor is.
If he has poor understanding of technical matters then it will also never snap in. I know of some pilots who were perfectly OK at the VFR bimbling level, then got loads of money (loads) and bought something with serious kit in it (not to mention doing 200-300kt) and, 100-200hrs later flying with an instructor (he enjoyed it, going all around Europe) had to chuck it in.
A Bonanza is not a rocket; thinks just happen a little bit faster at 150kt than in a C152, and one needs to actually understand how the stuff in it works. Most people get a PPL in say a C152 without ever understanding anything about avionics, radio nav, engine management, speed management, etc.
I never did circuits in the TB20. It's bad for the engine. The gear-up situation is OK if you have somebody in RHS watching it, but you wouldn't ever want to knacker your own engine.
Quote: no T&G:
because on pre-1984 models the gear switch is on the right and flaps on the left, on post-1984 models gear is left and flaps are on the right.
I helped recover a Bonanza at an airfield in Africa where this very thing happened. The pilot (apparently very experienced) raised the 'flaps' on the landing roll and the nose gear retracted. No one hurt, fortunately.
because on pre-1984 models the gear switch is on the right and flaps on the left, on post-1984 models gear is left and flaps are on the right.
I helped recover a Bonanza at an airfield in Africa where this very thing happened. The pilot (apparently very experienced) raised the 'flaps' on the landing roll and the nose gear retracted. No one hurt, fortunately.
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Converting from any fixed gear/prop to variable speed retractable is relatively easy. Remember to use checklists.
I think the biggest difference I noticed was the higher speeds for cruise etc. This means everything happens much more quickly. Unless you have practised then it is easy to spend ages doing checks and find you've travelled further than you thought.
I do agree that 5 hours dual is a reasonable time to convert and solo but you'll spend the next 10 hours or so getting ahead of the aircraft.
Once used to it you'll find the variable speed prop is much easier than fixed pitch as it does almost everything automatically for you.
One warning...going back to a fixed pitch/fixed gear will seem so slow and uninteresting.
I think the biggest difference I noticed was the higher speeds for cruise etc. This means everything happens much more quickly. Unless you have practised then it is easy to spend ages doing checks and find you've travelled further than you thought.
I do agree that 5 hours dual is a reasonable time to convert and solo but you'll spend the next 10 hours or so getting ahead of the aircraft.
Once used to it you'll find the variable speed prop is much easier than fixed pitch as it does almost everything automatically for you.
One warning...going back to a fixed pitch/fixed gear will seem so slow and uninteresting.
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So what do you do if you have to make a missed approach after touching down?
The Bonanza, when training two up, has plenty of excess power to get off with full flaps and this situation should be part of the check-out curriculum anyway.
For touch and goes the check pilot should select the flap and let the checkee stick to the standard procedures. The system works fine in the airline industry where new engines cost a darn sight more than a new Lycoming.
I reckon it's an excuse for juicing the customer for more money by trying to mystify and complicate what is not mysterious or complicated.
Bonanza is a nice aeroplane though.
The Bonanza, when training two up, has plenty of excess power to get off with full flaps and this situation should be part of the check-out curriculum anyway.
For touch and goes the check pilot should select the flap and let the checkee stick to the standard procedures. The system works fine in the airline industry where new engines cost a darn sight more than a new Lycoming.
I reckon it's an excuse for juicing the customer for more money by trying to mystify and complicate what is not mysterious or complicated.
Bonanza is a nice aeroplane though.
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It's an IFR term; means go-around. (IFR means instrument flight rules.)
Doesn't make a speck of difference what you call it but there is a point where, in case of unforseen circumstances, it is quicker and safer to get airbourne again than to stay on the ground.
Doesn't make a speck of difference what you call it but there is a point where, in case of unforseen circumstances, it is quicker and safer to get airbourne again than to stay on the ground.
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Doesn't make a speck of difference what you call it but there is a point where, in case of unforseen circumstances, it is quicker and safer to get airbourne again than to stay on the ground.
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Ha, ha, ha. So what do you do if you have an FAA IR and you lose visual contact or become unstabilized after DA/MAP? Or are unhappy about something (crosswind or gust) just before touchdown? Or touch down and find yourself skidding due to a contaminated runway? Or a vehicle or animal or other FOD enters your path?
Not completing a landing after an instrument approach means only one thing. You are still in the air and are following the MISSED APPRAOCH procedure. It's as simple as that either landed or missed approach.
Not completing a landing after an instrument approach means only one thing. You are still in the air and are following the MISSED APPRAOCH procedure. It's as simple as that either landed or missed approach.
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So we can agree then, that (using IFR terms) the discontinuance of a landing is a missed approach. Whatever circumstances then permit you to do is irrelevant. You may terminate the missed approach by making a visual approach or be radar vectored for a new instrument approach but until anything else is agreed (cleared) you're on the missed approach procedure.
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Miserlou, you may just like to pause and reflect on why it is the BPPP, possibly the largest type-specific GA training organisation in the world, strongly disagrees with your position ... as dirkdj says, their Bonanza/Baron instructors do not permit routine touch-and-go training operations.
There have been various examples in GA where training for a possible scenario has proven statistically more dangerous than the scenario itself - spinning and actual (as opposed to simulated) single-engine failure on a twin are two such cases where mandatory training has been outlawed by various regulatory authorities.
Bonanza/Baron touch-and-go training very much falls into this category. The fact is, for many years the flap and undercarriage lever positions on these otherwise superb aeroplanes were reversed from the norm in the industry. Perhaps worse still, in 1984 (for the Bonanza), they rectified the problem! I purchased my Bonanza in 1992 not long after its first owner had raised the undercarriage instead of the flaps on a landing roll-out ... he'd previously owned an earlier model where the levers were located around the other way!
I also personally know two Baron instructors that have succumbed to the same problem.
My advice to Montoya is this. If you have the opportunity to start flying a Bonanza, do. There is no earthly reason why you cannot easily master this type with a little help from a competent check pilot, assuming your aptitude is not significantly below average for an 88-hour PPL - and you'll never, ever want to fly a PA-28 again! So don't be put off by this thread, BUT DO NOT PRACTICE TOUCH AND GOES, AND NEVER RUSH TO RAISE THE FLAPS ON THE LANDING ROLL-OUT.
Islander2 - not yet an undercarriage-up statistic, but fully appreciative of how easy it is to become one!
There have been various examples in GA where training for a possible scenario has proven statistically more dangerous than the scenario itself - spinning and actual (as opposed to simulated) single-engine failure on a twin are two such cases where mandatory training has been outlawed by various regulatory authorities.
Bonanza/Baron touch-and-go training very much falls into this category. The fact is, for many years the flap and undercarriage lever positions on these otherwise superb aeroplanes were reversed from the norm in the industry. Perhaps worse still, in 1984 (for the Bonanza), they rectified the problem! I purchased my Bonanza in 1992 not long after its first owner had raised the undercarriage instead of the flaps on a landing roll-out ... he'd previously owned an earlier model where the levers were located around the other way!
I also personally know two Baron instructors that have succumbed to the same problem.
My advice to Montoya is this. If you have the opportunity to start flying a Bonanza, do. There is no earthly reason why you cannot easily master this type with a little help from a competent check pilot, assuming your aptitude is not significantly below average for an 88-hour PPL - and you'll never, ever want to fly a PA-28 again! So don't be put off by this thread, BUT DO NOT PRACTICE TOUCH AND GOES, AND NEVER RUSH TO RAISE THE FLAPS ON THE LANDING ROLL-OUT.
Islander2 - not yet an undercarriage-up statistic, but fully appreciative of how easy it is to become one!
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I would like to add: the 'gear collapse on the runway problem' can be easily avoided.
I have never had it, but I caught myself one day with my hand on the gear handle during rollout. It was only a fraction of a second and I didn't move anything but it made me realise how easy it is to get caught. FWIW I have many thousands of hours and 34 years of experience on the BE36.
On the runway, keep your right hand on the throttle and your left hand on the yoke.
I have never had it, but I caught myself one day with my hand on the gear handle during rollout. It was only a fraction of a second and I didn't move anything but it made me realise how easy it is to get caught. FWIW I have many thousands of hours and 34 years of experience on the BE36.
On the runway, keep your right hand on the throttle and your left hand on the yoke.
PA28/Bonanza
Montoya.
Shouldn't be a problem.
A few very relevent points raised here but the MAIN things to remember are these.
Sure its a faster aeroplane, so when you're approaching your destination, SLOW DOWN.
There's no point in hurtling into the circuit in ANY aeroplane.
The trip is virtually over and you will need to finally get back to your THRESHOLD speed eventually, besides needing to observe your Gear and Flap speed limitations.
DON'T RUSH once you're near your airfield. Besides a lot of other traffic is slow anyway and you won't want to cut them up, will you ? Also gives you more thinking time.
WRT gear and flap misidentification after a landing/T&G, as dirkdj so rightly advises, KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF UNTIL YOUR AIRCRAFT IS STATIONARY.
Finally, follow the advice of Zulu Alpha too.
USE THE CHECKLIST.
Oh, and know how to get the Gear down in an EMC............
Bonanza ? You'll love it.
Shouldn't be a problem.
A few very relevent points raised here but the MAIN things to remember are these.
Sure its a faster aeroplane, so when you're approaching your destination, SLOW DOWN.
There's no point in hurtling into the circuit in ANY aeroplane.
The trip is virtually over and you will need to finally get back to your THRESHOLD speed eventually, besides needing to observe your Gear and Flap speed limitations.
DON'T RUSH once you're near your airfield. Besides a lot of other traffic is slow anyway and you won't want to cut them up, will you ? Also gives you more thinking time.
WRT gear and flap misidentification after a landing/T&G, as dirkdj so rightly advises, KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF UNTIL YOUR AIRCRAFT IS STATIONARY.
Finally, follow the advice of Zulu Alpha too.
USE THE CHECKLIST.
Oh, and know how to get the Gear down in an EMC............
Bonanza ? You'll love it.
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Thanks, Islander2. I have paused and I have thought and I still reckon it's a cop out on their part. As pointed out by the previous two posters have pointed, the procedure is to not touch either item until clear of the runway when you have time to give them the proper attention. And, if their is no loose gravel around, what is so bad about taxiing all the way to the apron with the flaps down?
No, I still can't see why, if you have briefed the task properly, the check pilot can't raise the flaps to make a touch and go. Works perfectly well for us both on the jets and the turbo-props.
It's a good few years since I have flown either a Bonanza or a Travelair but aren't the levers also different shapes too?
Sorry, sounds more like they are trying to avoid any kind of liability claims (in addition to the previously mentioned reasons) or that they don't trust their instructors.
No, I still can't see why, if you have briefed the task properly, the check pilot can't raise the flaps to make a touch and go. Works perfectly well for us both on the jets and the turbo-props.
It's a good few years since I have flown either a Bonanza or a Travelair but aren't the levers also different shapes too?
Sorry, sounds more like they are trying to avoid any kind of liability claims (in addition to the previously mentioned reasons) or that they don't trust their instructors.
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Thanks for the advice guys,I'm definetly looking into it,it's a plane I really want to fly after flying the cherokee for quite a while now.All I need to do is to try get hold of 1.Also,ive been told that insurance will be pretty high as I still have low hours.
Also,with the touch and go problems,how will the conversion probably work?How many hours of landing practice will likely be involved?
Also,with the touch and go problems,how will the conversion probably work?How many hours of landing practice will likely be involved?
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"With respect to the Baron experience of inadvertant gear retraction, the NTSB conducted a detailed review in 1980 of all inadvertant landing gear retraction accidents occurring from 1975 to 1978. The Baron comprised only 16% of the light-twin fleet, but they were involved in 54% of this type of accident. It was determined these accidents occurred because the pilot was attempting to put the flap control up after landing and moved the landing gear control instead. The inadvertant movement of the landing gear control was often attributed to pilots being more accustomed to flying aircraft in which the landing gear and flap controls were in exactly opposite locations."
FWIW, since it's hardly statistically significant, the two Baron instructors that I know that have 'enjoyed' this experience (in both cases, long after the NTSB survey) were both acting as check pilots supervising touch-and-go landings. And in both cases, there was a lively post-flight debate as who it was that actually raised the gear!