The Average UK GA PPL?
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My comment at the begning of this thread was said in jest.
I was on a cpd course all day today, so haven't seen what Bose has said (he appears to have deleted what he said), but from what's left, it seems this thread has all gone very nasty.
I don't like where it's gone, and don't want to be a part of it, so have deleted my earlier post.
Appologies to Bose-X for the part that I played.
dp
I was on a cpd course all day today, so haven't seen what Bose has said (he appears to have deleted what he said), but from what's left, it seems this thread has all gone very nasty.
I don't like where it's gone, and don't want to be a part of it, so have deleted my earlier post.
Appologies to Bose-X for the part that I played.
dp
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I found the question in this topic a really good one. It's basically a "What on earth do people do with a PPL?". I've wondered that myself.
(Ignoring the 'sour' bits in the middle)
As it's winter, I wonder really what *can* be done this time of year. As my local field is Barton (on grass) I wonder if people resign themselves to not flying becasue either it's just rained (airfield soggy) or it's about to rain (airfield will be soggy) or it's frosty (aeroplane is stuck to the ground - ...okay, not exactly..) then failing all that, it's not VMC.
(Thinking about it theis whole topic is a bit like passing one's driving test and wondering what everybody else might be doing!)
My aspirations (at the moment) is getting some share in something (like a Piper Warrior or similar low wing 4 seater) and try going up two or three times a month. Having said that I'd expect not to go up due to weather some of that time. Also, if I went up too often I'd be missing out with the fun I could be having going away for weekends with my lovely wife. (I know too that my 'flying money' would have to be balanced with justification with other things too which she would like - fair enough).
I'm lucky in having flexibility in what I do, so I'd expect to take off the odd 'CAVOK' day and go up for a couple of hours midweek too, but not too often so that I wouldn't let people down.
These are but my aspirations, and I hope that I don't get put off by the few, or be suckered into the idea that it just isn't fun, or priced out by clubs, checkrides and endless IMC weather.
Will I go for IMC rating? Probably, more for that want of learning and to be a better pilot - I don't think I'd choose to go up if I knew it would be IMC, it's best to have it as a reserve.
T.
(Ignoring the 'sour' bits in the middle)
As it's winter, I wonder really what *can* be done this time of year. As my local field is Barton (on grass) I wonder if people resign themselves to not flying becasue either it's just rained (airfield soggy) or it's about to rain (airfield will be soggy) or it's frosty (aeroplane is stuck to the ground - ...okay, not exactly..) then failing all that, it's not VMC.
(Thinking about it theis whole topic is a bit like passing one's driving test and wondering what everybody else might be doing!)
My aspirations (at the moment) is getting some share in something (like a Piper Warrior or similar low wing 4 seater) and try going up two or three times a month. Having said that I'd expect not to go up due to weather some of that time. Also, if I went up too often I'd be missing out with the fun I could be having going away for weekends with my lovely wife. (I know too that my 'flying money' would have to be balanced with justification with other things too which she would like - fair enough).
I'm lucky in having flexibility in what I do, so I'd expect to take off the odd 'CAVOK' day and go up for a couple of hours midweek too, but not too often so that I wouldn't let people down.
These are but my aspirations, and I hope that I don't get put off by the few, or be suckered into the idea that it just isn't fun, or priced out by clubs, checkrides and endless IMC weather.
Will I go for IMC rating? Probably, more for that want of learning and to be a better pilot - I don't think I'd choose to go up if I knew it would be IMC, it's best to have it as a reserve.
T.
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Bose has indeed deleted everything he posted. A little extreme, perhaps. But anyway, to get this thread back on some sort of track....
I spent the first couple of winters after I got my PPL fretting about how little flying I managed to do. I think it's inevitable really in this country - short days, poor weather. I finally realised it doesn't have to be a problem. Do other things in the winter, and save the flying money. Once spring comes along, all you'll need is a short flight with an instructor to get current again. It's not that big a deal
Use the winter to plan what to do with your 20 hours a year, if that's all you can afford in time and/or money. Some ideas....
1) Instead of a short flight every week over the same area, do a longer one every couple of weeks, and go to a different airfield each time. In most areas of the country, there are an awful lot of airfields an hour or so from your starting point.
2) Get a flying buddy and do the above, flying one leg each. Half the cost, half the work, twice the fun, and you can do it twice as often.
3) Get a new rating - IMC, night, taildragger etc. Do it because you want to, not necessarily because you'll use it.
4) Take a weekend away flying, or a few days. If you can, and are confident enough, go to Ireland or the continent. But even just flying around the mainland UK will do. There's something very different about touring, never knowing where you'll end up staying. It becomes an adventure!
5) Fly something new - helicopter, microlight, seaplane, glider. Just try it to see what it's like.
6) Enter a competition - Dawn to Dusk, Top Nav, one of the air rallies. Or see if you can't get to navigate for someone in an air race (I must try that one sometime!)
I'm sure some other people can think of loads more.
Just remember, whatever some people on here might think, flying 20 hours a year doesn't make you a bad pilot, or mean that you're doomed to boredom and giving up. It just means you need to make every hour count. But you do that already, don't you?
I spent the first couple of winters after I got my PPL fretting about how little flying I managed to do. I think it's inevitable really in this country - short days, poor weather. I finally realised it doesn't have to be a problem. Do other things in the winter, and save the flying money. Once spring comes along, all you'll need is a short flight with an instructor to get current again. It's not that big a deal
Use the winter to plan what to do with your 20 hours a year, if that's all you can afford in time and/or money. Some ideas....
1) Instead of a short flight every week over the same area, do a longer one every couple of weeks, and go to a different airfield each time. In most areas of the country, there are an awful lot of airfields an hour or so from your starting point.
2) Get a flying buddy and do the above, flying one leg each. Half the cost, half the work, twice the fun, and you can do it twice as often.
3) Get a new rating - IMC, night, taildragger etc. Do it because you want to, not necessarily because you'll use it.
4) Take a weekend away flying, or a few days. If you can, and are confident enough, go to Ireland or the continent. But even just flying around the mainland UK will do. There's something very different about touring, never knowing where you'll end up staying. It becomes an adventure!
5) Fly something new - helicopter, microlight, seaplane, glider. Just try it to see what it's like.
6) Enter a competition - Dawn to Dusk, Top Nav, one of the air rallies. Or see if you can't get to navigate for someone in an air race (I must try that one sometime!)
I'm sure some other people can think of loads more.
Just remember, whatever some people on here might think, flying 20 hours a year doesn't make you a bad pilot, or mean that you're doomed to boredom and giving up. It just means you need to make every hour count. But you do that already, don't you?
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May I thank a few people?
Firstly, the people who tried to help answer the question I posed. I have posted an idea on the PFA site, and have had some positive feedback from an influential person from PFA world to say it is interesting. I hope we can do something to keep some of the pilots in the system that would ordinarily drop out, which will be good for us all.
Secondly, the sub plot. This turned into one of the most amusing threads I have ever read, thank you for the entertainment. Fortunately I copied most of it before BRL (quite rightly) stepped in,
Thirdly, to Whirlybird and a few others for restoring my faith in humanity after all the c**p. Are you up at the hill this weekend? If you are I will buy you a coffee.
Rod1
Firstly, the people who tried to help answer the question I posed. I have posted an idea on the PFA site, and have had some positive feedback from an influential person from PFA world to say it is interesting. I hope we can do something to keep some of the pilots in the system that would ordinarily drop out, which will be good for us all.
Secondly, the sub plot. This turned into one of the most amusing threads I have ever read, thank you for the entertainment. Fortunately I copied most of it before BRL (quite rightly) stepped in,
Thirdly, to Whirlybird and a few others for restoring my faith in humanity after all the c**p. Are you up at the hill this weekend? If you are I will buy you a coffee.
Rod1
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Rod1 wrote:
Rod,
That is not the fault of JAR but that of a poor understanding of the rules.
They could have done a checkride with an examiner and then do their 5 hours each for the same expenditure.
FD
I used to know two retired gents who would fly min hours a year under the old rules. Both would turn up and do check rides in a 4 seater with the other in the back. They would then fly 5 hours each P1 with the other in the aircraft. As soon as both had the 5 hours, normally 1 to 2 weeks, both would vanish to the next year. During the 5 hours each they would practice all aspects of the basic PPL. They kept this up for many years, but JAR finished them off, along with many others.
Rod1
Rod1
That is not the fault of JAR but that of a poor understanding of the rules.
They could have done a checkride with an examiner and then do their 5 hours each for the same expenditure.
FD
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Rod1,
"The hill"? As in Tatenhill? I'm supposed to be instructing there on Saturday morning. But then, I was supposed to be at Sheffield today, and with winds forecast of 18G32, my day's been cancelled.
And there's a humongous low pressure system moving this way, so it'll probably be getting worse over the weekend. However, if I am there I'll certainly take you up on that coffee.
"The hill"? As in Tatenhill? I'm supposed to be instructing there on Saturday morning. But then, I was supposed to be at Sheffield today, and with winds forecast of 18G32, my day's been cancelled.
And there's a humongous low pressure system moving this way, so it'll probably be getting worse over the weekend. However, if I am there I'll certainly take you up on that coffee.
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I think the point about this thread that Rod was looking at was 'value for money.'
We are all different people and live our lives in a way that is right for us and not for other people. The same is true in flying and if we did not enjoy what we did then we would pack it in - this, I think, is where Rod is heading.
I think I am fairly typical (edit - in the reasons why I lapsed) in as much as once I had achieved my PPL aged 26 I just about stayed current for five years, lapsed the next four years, re-validated, just about stayed current and finally lapsed again two years after that in my late thirties because I felt that I was achieving nothing other than keeping what I already had and spending £100 in cash each time I went to the airport (Blackpool).
A couple of years later I stumbled across a private flying strip and was introduced to a whole new world of Permit flying and despite the fact that hiring was not possible - the fun and thrill and minimal expense of Permit aircraft gave me a buzz which I retain to this day - 8 years on !
Personally I believe that most PPLs lapse because the box was ticked and the way forward seems a bit foggy and the PFA and BMAA need to be broadcasting far and wide that if you just want to fly for fun then you can achieve much more for your money in the Permit world.
This is not detracting from those who get their buzz from flying fast and complex aircraft in marginal conditions or at night the Permit world will never satisfy those aspirations. I believe the Permit Associations should be targetting those who are lapsing and losing the will/motivation to continue flying through any combination of financial, family or work issues or just because the renting of Club aircraft is no longer giving any feeling of self satisfaction at the end of a cross country.
Rod seems to have ascertained that a typical PPL budgets between £2,000 - £5,000 a year on flying depending on his/her family and work committments. It will be interesting to see some calculations (based on broad generalisations I know) to compare how that budget can be spent to provide a better and more satidfying flying experience - IF - your thing is just 'flying for fun.'
We are all different people and live our lives in a way that is right for us and not for other people. The same is true in flying and if we did not enjoy what we did then we would pack it in - this, I think, is where Rod is heading.
I think I am fairly typical (edit - in the reasons why I lapsed) in as much as once I had achieved my PPL aged 26 I just about stayed current for five years, lapsed the next four years, re-validated, just about stayed current and finally lapsed again two years after that in my late thirties because I felt that I was achieving nothing other than keeping what I already had and spending £100 in cash each time I went to the airport (Blackpool).
A couple of years later I stumbled across a private flying strip and was introduced to a whole new world of Permit flying and despite the fact that hiring was not possible - the fun and thrill and minimal expense of Permit aircraft gave me a buzz which I retain to this day - 8 years on !
Personally I believe that most PPLs lapse because the box was ticked and the way forward seems a bit foggy and the PFA and BMAA need to be broadcasting far and wide that if you just want to fly for fun then you can achieve much more for your money in the Permit world.
This is not detracting from those who get their buzz from flying fast and complex aircraft in marginal conditions or at night the Permit world will never satisfy those aspirations. I believe the Permit Associations should be targetting those who are lapsing and losing the will/motivation to continue flying through any combination of financial, family or work issues or just because the renting of Club aircraft is no longer giving any feeling of self satisfaction at the end of a cross country.
Rod seems to have ascertained that a typical PPL budgets between £2,000 - £5,000 a year on flying depending on his/her family and work committments. It will be interesting to see some calculations (based on broad generalisations I know) to compare how that budget can be spent to provide a better and more satidfying flying experience - IF - your thing is just 'flying for fun.'
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Originally Posted by tonyhalsall
Rod seems to have ascertained that a typical PPL budgets between £2,000 - £5,000 a year on flying depending on his/her family and work committments.
There hasn't been a question on here or on FLYER about how much anyone spends on flying per annum, nor could I easily find such a question on the PFA bulletin board. So how has it been ascertained?
WTF is a typical PPL? A student? An owner? A hirer? A PFA member? An aeros god? I don't understand what a "typical" something is when there are so many variants that nothing is "typical" at all.
What's the real agenda here chaps?
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Hi Rustle,
The original post was an educated guess; it seems to be about right from the comments above. If you assume a hire rate of £100 solo and £120 dual plus maps etc then you are looking at about £2000 - £2500. It is not important if it is more, but any plan must work for this range.
If you have a look over on the PFA site you will see what I have in mind. If the PFA back the idea (which is looking ok at the moment) then an effort will be made create a” low hour PPL support package” to encourage these VFR / Day pilots that it is possible to do a lot more, and join an active support network, for the money available. This I hope will get the PFA more members and the flying community more pilots, by keeping some of the ones which would have dropped out.
Tony did this all by himself and he is typical of the people we could help. The problem is most such pilots do not know the options exist which is why we need to up the profile in a professional way. It will require a lot of volunteers and a lot of time but we might just make a difference. None of this is aimed at doing any damage to the rights of IR pilots.
Would you like to help?
Rod1
The original post was an educated guess; it seems to be about right from the comments above. If you assume a hire rate of £100 solo and £120 dual plus maps etc then you are looking at about £2000 - £2500. It is not important if it is more, but any plan must work for this range.
If you have a look over on the PFA site you will see what I have in mind. If the PFA back the idea (which is looking ok at the moment) then an effort will be made create a” low hour PPL support package” to encourage these VFR / Day pilots that it is possible to do a lot more, and join an active support network, for the money available. This I hope will get the PFA more members and the flying community more pilots, by keeping some of the ones which would have dropped out.
Tony did this all by himself and he is typical of the people we could help. The problem is most such pilots do not know the options exist which is why we need to up the profile in a professional way. It will require a lot of volunteers and a lot of time but we might just make a difference. None of this is aimed at doing any damage to the rights of IR pilots.
Would you like to help?
Rod1
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Rod
I am still not clear about why you asked the original question.
The subject of why people give up, and what can be done to improve things, has beed discussed here a lot before, and it generated very long threads. My recollection is that there is a lot less agreement on the former than on the latter, but it's rather academic since very little can be done about the latter, in the UK climate (by "climate" I don't necessarily mean just weather; I am including attitudes also).
There is IMHO little point in establishing averages, for reasons I already gave. There are too many diverse groups, operating diverse plane types in diverse circumstances (including very different levels of security and future-proofing) and unsuprisingly having diverse attitudes.
A few random comments on recent posts:
JAA has been blamed for the decline in new PPL issue numbers (evidence: CAA website) in recent years but IMHO this is bogus. And as FD points out, you don't need to do any flying. If somebody had to stop flying under JAA, it probably means he felt he would have had no chance of passing a check flight. Biannual flights are a good thing IMHO and the FAA (under which 75% of the known GA universe flies) has had them for many years. In fact I can't see what JAA has done to significantly increase costs.
IFR isn't about flying in marginal weather or in the dark. IFR is all about being able to fly in glorious warm sunshine, above the clouds, when those forced to go VFR are stuck between the clouds and the hills, scud running in often cr*p visibility and having to divert because they can't continue. The enroute strategy under IFR is to always avoid IMC, not least because it brings icing and makes passengers puke up. The IMC Rating gives you a part of this great capability, but only a part because one cannot go into Class A and one does not get any kind of whole-route clearance.
None of this is aimed at doing any damage to the rights of IR pilots
But the two are linked. If you own a 1910 Bentley and drive it 10 times a year on sunny Sundays, you are benefitting from all the other drivers supporting the road system. Strip flyers tend to think that the rest of GA can vanish and it won't affect them, but it will because this is a tightly regulated sphere and everything is wrapped up together. If you deregulate VFR into some sort of low level NPPL system, you can be sure that IFR capability will be sacrificed on the altar of the regulatory bartering between different nations, or even within a single regulatory body. This will strip out practically all utility value out of GA and eventually the activity will be confined to a few bearded pilots flying out of their freehold farm strips. This type of flying attracts very little public interest which will in turn isolate GA further from those who would actually like to get into it. It will kill off flight training which will cause the whole scene to die out as fast as those (often already elderly) participants leave flying due to age related issues. So maintaining GA airfields, IFR facilities, and VFR+IFR training facilities is vital to all - much as those flying off farm strips might think they are invincible.
I am still not clear about why you asked the original question.
The subject of why people give up, and what can be done to improve things, has beed discussed here a lot before, and it generated very long threads. My recollection is that there is a lot less agreement on the former than on the latter, but it's rather academic since very little can be done about the latter, in the UK climate (by "climate" I don't necessarily mean just weather; I am including attitudes also).
There is IMHO little point in establishing averages, for reasons I already gave. There are too many diverse groups, operating diverse plane types in diverse circumstances (including very different levels of security and future-proofing) and unsuprisingly having diverse attitudes.
A few random comments on recent posts:
JAA has been blamed for the decline in new PPL issue numbers (evidence: CAA website) in recent years but IMHO this is bogus. And as FD points out, you don't need to do any flying. If somebody had to stop flying under JAA, it probably means he felt he would have had no chance of passing a check flight. Biannual flights are a good thing IMHO and the FAA (under which 75% of the known GA universe flies) has had them for many years. In fact I can't see what JAA has done to significantly increase costs.
IFR isn't about flying in marginal weather or in the dark. IFR is all about being able to fly in glorious warm sunshine, above the clouds, when those forced to go VFR are stuck between the clouds and the hills, scud running in often cr*p visibility and having to divert because they can't continue. The enroute strategy under IFR is to always avoid IMC, not least because it brings icing and makes passengers puke up. The IMC Rating gives you a part of this great capability, but only a part because one cannot go into Class A and one does not get any kind of whole-route clearance.
None of this is aimed at doing any damage to the rights of IR pilots
But the two are linked. If you own a 1910 Bentley and drive it 10 times a year on sunny Sundays, you are benefitting from all the other drivers supporting the road system. Strip flyers tend to think that the rest of GA can vanish and it won't affect them, but it will because this is a tightly regulated sphere and everything is wrapped up together. If you deregulate VFR into some sort of low level NPPL system, you can be sure that IFR capability will be sacrificed on the altar of the regulatory bartering between different nations, or even within a single regulatory body. This will strip out practically all utility value out of GA and eventually the activity will be confined to a few bearded pilots flying out of their freehold farm strips. This type of flying attracts very little public interest which will in turn isolate GA further from those who would actually like to get into it. It will kill off flight training which will cause the whole scene to die out as fast as those (often already elderly) participants leave flying due to age related issues. So maintaining GA airfields, IFR facilities, and VFR+IFR training facilities is vital to all - much as those flying off farm strips might think they are invincible.
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IO540,
I think there is a difference between us on what flying a permit aircraft is all about. You view it as something which happens on private strips, and some of it does. I am based on a licensed airfield which has about as many permit types as C of A types. Increasing the permit types by 5% would make no difference at all to airfield operations.
I am only one person and I know from experience that there are very few people fighting the GA corner. All I am attempting to do is reduce the high drop out rate by a small amount. If 10% of the pilots that give up each year can be saved and persuaded to join the PFA and carry on flying then I think the PFA would be very happy and we would have achieved something worthwile.
I do not think that the above will reduce the number of IR rated pilots by any at all. It is possible that the onerous financial burden on such pilots will grow to such an extent that you would need a £25000 budget to support your chosen type of flying, but again what I am planning will make no difference as the change in total numbers will be too small.
As far as I am concerned all Pilots are Pilots, it does not mater if you are talking the world aerobatic champion or a guy with a micro, all are important. If the right to fly IFR was threatened I would be supportive. The IR group have very good representation and long may that continue.
It is hard to understand why trying to help pilots in a small practical way threaten so many egos. I can understand if you own a gas guzzling dinosaur which you have invested huge money in and it is depreciating at an astonishing rate why people would be upset, but I do not have any control over this.
Tony has been in the position that my target group is in. Did his flying career cause the end of IFR flight as we know it??
One last point. If the PFA grows and gains more power with our European masters what do you think will be on the agenda. Night and IFR in suitable aircraft would have to be high on the list. In the US may permit aircraft are flown in IMC, and those same designs are in use in the UK. We will then have the possibility of IFR flight at a price that your ordinary Joe can afford. This would be a good thing, right?
Rod1
I think there is a difference between us on what flying a permit aircraft is all about. You view it as something which happens on private strips, and some of it does. I am based on a licensed airfield which has about as many permit types as C of A types. Increasing the permit types by 5% would make no difference at all to airfield operations.
I am only one person and I know from experience that there are very few people fighting the GA corner. All I am attempting to do is reduce the high drop out rate by a small amount. If 10% of the pilots that give up each year can be saved and persuaded to join the PFA and carry on flying then I think the PFA would be very happy and we would have achieved something worthwile.
I do not think that the above will reduce the number of IR rated pilots by any at all. It is possible that the onerous financial burden on such pilots will grow to such an extent that you would need a £25000 budget to support your chosen type of flying, but again what I am planning will make no difference as the change in total numbers will be too small.
As far as I am concerned all Pilots are Pilots, it does not mater if you are talking the world aerobatic champion or a guy with a micro, all are important. If the right to fly IFR was threatened I would be supportive. The IR group have very good representation and long may that continue.
It is hard to understand why trying to help pilots in a small practical way threaten so many egos. I can understand if you own a gas guzzling dinosaur which you have invested huge money in and it is depreciating at an astonishing rate why people would be upset, but I do not have any control over this.
Tony has been in the position that my target group is in. Did his flying career cause the end of IFR flight as we know it??
One last point. If the PFA grows and gains more power with our European masters what do you think will be on the agenda. Night and IFR in suitable aircraft would have to be high on the list. In the US may permit aircraft are flown in IMC, and those same designs are in use in the UK. We will then have the possibility of IFR flight at a price that your ordinary Joe can afford. This would be a good thing, right?
Rod1
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I must be going thick but I think you need to spell out exactly what you are proposing.
Everybody wants GA to prosper and egos are nothing to do with that.
Real IFR will always be expensive; I doubt anybody does IFR at the European airways level for less than £10,000/year (which could be the total cost of operating a group shared aircraft). This group will always be small but not because of the cost; it will be small because flying at this level involves the constant pushing of so many rocks up mountains.
Improvements suggested in the past have included:
Training from non-licensed airfields (according to a CAA survey, most flying schools did not actually object to this)
Allowing experienced PPLs to train (most schools would object vigorously)
Schools to embrace experienced PPLs, to be used as mentors for students but more particularly fresh PPL holders (would not go down well with most instructors)
Modernisation of the training syllabus, with GPS and modern weather services, to enable a fresh PPL to do something more than a local burger run (lots of objections to this one)
Modernisation of the GA fleet, to attract more affluent and more modern customers (opposition from traditional pilots, and anyway who is going to pay for it?)
An interesting thing would be to examine why for example Greece has such a near-dead GA scene, despite fantastic weather and utility value (all those small islands). In fact GA is relatively (to the UK) dead in most of Europe.
Everybody wants GA to prosper and egos are nothing to do with that.
Real IFR will always be expensive; I doubt anybody does IFR at the European airways level for less than £10,000/year (which could be the total cost of operating a group shared aircraft). This group will always be small but not because of the cost; it will be small because flying at this level involves the constant pushing of so many rocks up mountains.
Improvements suggested in the past have included:
Training from non-licensed airfields (according to a CAA survey, most flying schools did not actually object to this)
Allowing experienced PPLs to train (most schools would object vigorously)
Schools to embrace experienced PPLs, to be used as mentors for students but more particularly fresh PPL holders (would not go down well with most instructors)
Modernisation of the training syllabus, with GPS and modern weather services, to enable a fresh PPL to do something more than a local burger run (lots of objections to this one)
Modernisation of the GA fleet, to attract more affluent and more modern customers (opposition from traditional pilots, and anyway who is going to pay for it?)
An interesting thing would be to examine why for example Greece has such a near-dead GA scene, despite fantastic weather and utility value (all those small islands). In fact GA is relatively (to the UK) dead in most of Europe.
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Originally Posted by Rod1
The first thing making me think that being the title: "How do we get more pilot members?"
Obviously from my point of view AOPA, PPL-IR and CPA fulfil my needs
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So maintaining GA airfields, IFR facilities, and VFR+IFR training facilities is vital to all - much as those flying off farm strips might think they are invincible.
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