Reasonable charge for flight sim
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: glasgow
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reasonable charge for flight sim
We have recently purchased a flight simulator (not approved) for use at our club in Scotland (we are guarenteed lots of unflyable days up here!).
It was not possible (or economicable) to get a CAA approved one but we have a reasonable setup which should be of use to our students and pilots.
My reason for the post is to get an idea of what would be a reasonable charge (we need to recover some of the outlay) for use of the sim, and also a reasonable rate for instructors.
The main points are:-
1 It is NOT CAA (and therefore not logable towards PPL or IMC course) approved although it is FAA approved and is of a reasonable standard with full instrument kit, instructor console and outside projector.
2 The instructors are still providing actual instruction although.
Any feedback (+ve and -ve) would be greatly appreciated.
I will also post on the Instructors forum for opinions but am keen to get an honest response from the people who would use this type of facility.
It was not possible (or economicable) to get a CAA approved one but we have a reasonable setup which should be of use to our students and pilots.
My reason for the post is to get an idea of what would be a reasonable charge (we need to recover some of the outlay) for use of the sim, and also a reasonable rate for instructors.
The main points are:-
1 It is NOT CAA (and therefore not logable towards PPL or IMC course) approved although it is FAA approved and is of a reasonable standard with full instrument kit, instructor console and outside projector.
2 The instructors are still providing actual instruction although.
Any feedback (+ve and -ve) would be greatly appreciated.
I will also post on the Instructors forum for opinions but am keen to get an honest response from the people who would use this type of facility.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Depends what it is.....Is it an older AST300 type or a more advanced PCATD type of thing like an Elite ATD (instruments on flat screen)?
For FAA IPC, I would pay 50 GBP per hour plus the instructor (FAA CFII or IGI). I may pay for sim alone if I wanted to practice instrument stuff (say with a mate acting as ATC), but wouldn't pay for instruction if it wasn't loggable. I also wouldn't pay the "FAA Approved" rate as it is not loggable without a CFII (or IGI) and the approaches don't "count" for anything....so say 30 GBP per hour.
Have you thought about renting it out to FAA instructors for a reduced rate? Say 35 GBP per hour for blocks of 10 hours or more? They can then bring in their students, charge them 100 GBP per hour all in, yet make 65 GBP per hour, and you get your sim used and paid for.....
Cheers
For FAA IPC, I would pay 50 GBP per hour plus the instructor (FAA CFII or IGI). I may pay for sim alone if I wanted to practice instrument stuff (say with a mate acting as ATC), but wouldn't pay for instruction if it wasn't loggable. I also wouldn't pay the "FAA Approved" rate as it is not loggable without a CFII (or IGI) and the approaches don't "count" for anything....so say 30 GBP per hour.
Have you thought about renting it out to FAA instructors for a reduced rate? Say 35 GBP per hour for blocks of 10 hours or more? They can then bring in their students, charge them 100 GBP per hour all in, yet make 65 GBP per hour, and you get your sim used and paid for.....
Cheers
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 68
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My club was offered the use of a simulator some years ago. It was an interesting experiment, but didn't get much use.
My view was that depending on the level of complexity of the simulator and the ability to book the time, it should be treated either as an arcade game for rainy days, or a supervised training session.
Costs can then be worked out accordingly. Up to £5 per/hr for the general stuff, or it won't get the use, with a proportionate increase for supervised instruction.
But beware of over-optimism about its use.
My view was that depending on the level of complexity of the simulator and the ability to book the time, it should be treated either as an arcade game for rainy days, or a supervised training session.
Costs can then be worked out accordingly. Up to £5 per/hr for the general stuff, or it won't get the use, with a proportionate increase for supervised instruction.
But beware of over-optimism about its use.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oxford
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I used to fly at PFT at Kidlington, who have an ancient FRASCA sim which I suspect was once CAA approved, though not I think now. Certainly when I did my IMC we used it for training, but it didn't count as part of the 15 hours. It has a plotter which will draw a map of your route, and instructor controls for failing instruments &c.
That was £30/hr at the time (2003), plus instructor fee if applicable - or free for students currently doing an IMC course. As a result of the latter, I spent quite a bit of time on it and it undoubtedly contributed to my doing the IMC in minimum hours.
Tim
That was £30/hr at the time (2003), plus instructor fee if applicable - or free for students currently doing an IMC course. As a result of the latter, I spent quite a bit of time on it and it undoubtedly contributed to my doing the IMC in minimum hours.
Tim
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 1,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To be honest if its not approved then I doubt that you would get much interest. Folks are not going to pay £50/hr plus £35 for an instructor if nothing is loggable or can be counted towards revalidations, etc. YOu may as well play on MS Flight sim.
Maybe you could push it as an added attraction at your club for people to practice on in their own time and charge them when you work out what the hourly running costs are. May attract some new students and pay for itself that way.
J.
Maybe you could push it as an added attraction at your club for people to practice on in their own time and charge them when you work out what the hourly running costs are. May attract some new students and pay for itself that way.
J.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: glasgow
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you for the feedback. I will explain a bit more......
Our Club has bought (about £7k) a sim with projector etc. to give a facility when our weather is not good enough to fly. The running costs should not be high (electrics, projector bulbs, upgrades, etc) but we would like EVERYONE to get the benefit.
I think much of the benefit will be using it with instruction - even if it can't be logged it should help people to learn.
The question is what is reasonable to charge:-
A) for the use of the sim (I thought £25 per hour or £100 annually for unlimited use.
B) for the instructor. They are spending the time with the student and although it cannot be logged they should be paid. Some of our instructors think FOC, some £10 per hour, some full charge £25 - £30.
Our Club has bought (about £7k) a sim with projector etc. to give a facility when our weather is not good enough to fly. The running costs should not be high (electrics, projector bulbs, upgrades, etc) but we would like EVERYONE to get the benefit.
I think much of the benefit will be using it with instruction - even if it can't be logged it should help people to learn.
The question is what is reasonable to charge:-
A) for the use of the sim (I thought £25 per hour or £100 annually for unlimited use.
B) for the instructor. They are spending the time with the student and although it cannot be logged they should be paid. Some of our instructors think FOC, some £10 per hour, some full charge £25 - £30.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would pay 100quid a year for unlimited access to a sim that I could use for realistic instrument practice. Instructor time is more difficult to work out, I would not want an instructor as I don't need instruction on this stuff just practice. If someone was doing an IMC rating and got weathered off then a sim loggable or not is a good way of practicing this stuff and an instructor would benefit that. But if they are weathered off the instructor is not getting flying pay anyway and in a sim they are not at risk so I would expect a much lower rate.
Very difficult question to answer, trying to keep all the peope happy all the time!
Very difficult question to answer, trying to keep all the peope happy all the time!
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: My house
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think £20 per hour for the Sim is not unreasonable as long as it is a good one. Most students will recognise that getting things right in the sim might save time and cost in the air later, so the time being non loggable is less of an issue. For it to be productive, the instructor needs to be THERE, not dipping in and out as could be the case. If the instructor devotes propper attention and training, then they should get their hourly rate.
£40 p/h is not a huge amount, considering the time / dissruption / and dissapointment that bad weather inflicts on keen students.
£40 p/h is not a huge amount, considering the time / dissruption / and dissapointment that bad weather inflicts on keen students.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 68
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the figures you are quoting are far too much.
Our experience was that if the weather is too duff for flying, the students cancel their lessons early and do something else. They don't come to the club unless they are going to fly and would prefer to hold on to their cash for the next flight. They would not be keen on paying out much (or any) money for a simulator.
The company we were approached by wanted us to spend big bucks on a purchase or a rental arrangement but we couldn't make the income from occasional use work.
Our experience was that if the weather is too duff for flying, the students cancel their lessons early and do something else. They don't come to the club unless they are going to fly and would prefer to hold on to their cash for the next flight. They would not be keen on paying out much (or any) money for a simulator.
The company we were approached by wanted us to spend big bucks on a purchase or a rental arrangement but we couldn't make the income from occasional use work.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think that the max you can expect is 3 times on the sim before it gets boring for any one IMC student. The soon reliase that the true worth is limited when they are actually in the plane bouncing about and it after about 3 hours they will understand how the procedures work.
Its a ratio of number of IMC students going through per year against the cost and how many times they will use the sim, suggesting tops £60 per student!!!!
Its a ratio of number of IMC students going through per year against the cost and how many times they will use the sim, suggesting tops £60 per student!!!!
