piper cherokee 140 or cessna which is more dangerous to spin?
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piper cherokee 140 or cessna which is more dangerous to spin?
I would like to know which one of the two being the cherokee 140 and the cessna 152/172 is more dangerous to spin and would like to hear stories of good flights gone bad doing the stall/spin training.
So, do I train the cherokee or cessna?
So, do I train the cherokee or cessna?
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I think finding valid information on (facts and figure) which is more dangerous is impossible, who says its dangerous anyway, with proper entry and recovery a spin is a pleasant experience, it certainly was during my training and subsequent spinning sorties.
I have spun both the PA28-140 and C150 Aerobat, both seemed be reluctant to spin to need a fair bit of effort to get a nice spin and not a spiral dive!
Cessna or Piper? I would take a Piper any day, again just personal choice but they are stronger (if you did put one in!) the integral engine bearer nose leg is stronger but I suppose Cessna designed their riveted on nose leg to be the weak link, works well though.
The Piper is of stronger construction through ought, both aircraft do what they say on the tin!
JL..........
I have spun both the PA28-140 and C150 Aerobat, both seemed be reluctant to spin to need a fair bit of effort to get a nice spin and not a spiral dive!
Cessna or Piper? I would take a Piper any day, again just personal choice but they are stronger (if you did put one in!) the integral engine bearer nose leg is stronger but I suppose Cessna designed their riveted on nose leg to be the weak link, works well though.
The Piper is of stronger construction through ought, both aircraft do what they say on the tin!
JL..........
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As said above, both of the aircraft are inherently stable and really need some work to get them to spin.
I would suggest that the aircraft is not the dangerous part in the setup, but rather the pilot. If you are training with a good, experienced instructor then you should have absolutely no problems!
I would suggest that the aircraft is not the dangerous part in the setup, but rather the pilot. If you are training with a good, experienced instructor then you should have absolutely no problems!
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My instuctor told me that with enough height, you could put the 152 in a spin, and just sit back and it would eventually sort itself out, don't know how true this is for other types.
Wouldn't like to try that myself though !!.
Girl I used to work with went to the US to do her PPL, and never finished it as just after one of her flights, she got out, the next stude got in and went off with the same instructor, never to return. They were spinning in a Tramahawk.
Wouldn't like to try that myself though !!.
Girl I used to work with went to the US to do her PPL, and never finished it as just after one of her flights, she got out, the next stude got in and went off with the same instructor, never to return. They were spinning in a Tramahawk.
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Spinning
In most modern training aircraft (particularly military types or similar), if certified for spins, the standard recovery consists of relieving any control pressure and the aircraft stops spinning.
I've spun C172 and used a more traditional recovery. Very difficult to get a high wing cessna to spin as opposed to spiral dive. If you go to the trouble of getting yourself into one, you should know how to recover as per the POH.
I've spun C172 and used a more traditional recovery. Very difficult to get a high wing cessna to spin as opposed to spiral dive. If you go to the trouble of getting yourself into one, you should know how to recover as per the POH.
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I've spun C152 and C172 quite a bit, and with the correct entry inputs they spin a treat !! It was a requirement for both PPL and CPL in Canada, although by the time I took my PPL back in '99 they had actually dropped that as test item.
"In most modern training aircraft (particularly military types or similar), if certified for spins, the standard recovery consists of relieving any control pressure and the aircraft stops spinning."
I'm not sure if that is entirely correct. Relaxing the controls usually recovers the stall (and remember, no stall - no spin), but it usually requires opposite rudder input to stop the spin, particularly as it gains momentum and becomes well developed.
"Girl I used to work with went to the US to do her PPL, and never finished it as just after one of her flights, she got out, the next stude got in and went off with the same instructor, never to return. They were spinning in a Tramahawk."
I've heard of other instances of Tomahawks getting into dangerous spins. I'm sure I read about that on pprune years ago. Could have even have been www or scroggs providing the anecdotal evidence !
Anyway, in answer to the posters question, can't comment on the Piper, but the C152/72 is very benign and under the circumstances "safe to spin".
Happy spinning.
CG
"In most modern training aircraft (particularly military types or similar), if certified for spins, the standard recovery consists of relieving any control pressure and the aircraft stops spinning."
I'm not sure if that is entirely correct. Relaxing the controls usually recovers the stall (and remember, no stall - no spin), but it usually requires opposite rudder input to stop the spin, particularly as it gains momentum and becomes well developed.
"Girl I used to work with went to the US to do her PPL, and never finished it as just after one of her flights, she got out, the next stude got in and went off with the same instructor, never to return. They were spinning in a Tramahawk."
I've heard of other instances of Tomahawks getting into dangerous spins. I'm sure I read about that on pprune years ago. Could have even have been www or scroggs providing the anecdotal evidence !
Anyway, in answer to the posters question, can't comment on the Piper, but the C152/72 is very benign and under the circumstances "safe to spin".
Happy spinning.
CG
Ah, the good old days when spinning was a compulsory part of a PPL!
I have spun 140's and 152's without any problems. Re the Tomahawk - after a number of accidents I seem to recall that intentional spinning was forbidden in them. Don't know if this still applies.
I have spun 140's and 152's without any problems. Re the Tomahawk - after a number of accidents I seem to recall that intentional spinning was forbidden in them. Don't know if this still applies.
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Neither of these types spin very well - this does not mean they are dangerous but they tend to come out too easily, I would recommend doing spinning in an aircraft that is better at doing a true spin - e.g. Bulldog,Chippie, dH82a. Anyone who has only span a Cessna or Pa28 might be surprised at the difference
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It is still legal to spin the P38.
In the UK you have to have a 4 point harness fitted and under half tank of fuel. And the mod done on the tail, which I would think they all had now. And you are not allowed to flick them in with a boot full of rudder.
Alot of instructors who were trained on cessna types have a bit of a shock the first time they spin one. They are used to a very sedate spin and having to keep a boot of rudder in just to keep the machine in.
Unfortunatly when they first do one in the PA38 they help it into a spin. Then discover what a fully developed spin looks like. Everything happens very quickly with lots of banging down the back. Loosing 2.5k ft and doing 5 turns in under 30 seconds is not unusual. Your only meant to do 3 turns max but unless you carry out the POH method within 1.5 turns with half tanks you in for 5. Also it has a tendency to speed up the spin rate before slowing down, which personally I think half the problems were people not sticking with the full oppersite rudder when it speeded up.
After the shock of the first one they tend to believe the rumours and then repeat the old terrorhawk stories thus continuing the legend that you will die if you spin one.
The PA38 is actually a very good learning platform and students tend not have any problems converting onto other types.
In the UK you have to have a 4 point harness fitted and under half tank of fuel. And the mod done on the tail, which I would think they all had now. And you are not allowed to flick them in with a boot full of rudder.
Alot of instructors who were trained on cessna types have a bit of a shock the first time they spin one. They are used to a very sedate spin and having to keep a boot of rudder in just to keep the machine in.
Unfortunatly when they first do one in the PA38 they help it into a spin. Then discover what a fully developed spin looks like. Everything happens very quickly with lots of banging down the back. Loosing 2.5k ft and doing 5 turns in under 30 seconds is not unusual. Your only meant to do 3 turns max but unless you carry out the POH method within 1.5 turns with half tanks you in for 5. Also it has a tendency to speed up the spin rate before slowing down, which personally I think half the problems were people not sticking with the full oppersite rudder when it speeded up.
After the shock of the first one they tend to believe the rumours and then repeat the old terrorhawk stories thus continuing the legend that you will die if you spin one.
The PA38 is actually a very good learning platform and students tend not have any problems converting onto other types.
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A handful of responses and already a sad amount of mis-, dis- and just plain wrong information.
Go to a school which has aircraft that are cleared for spinning, and make sure that you have an experienced instructor who has spent a lot of time exploring the various types of normal and aggravated spins. Get taught properly.
Go to a school which has aircraft that are cleared for spinning, and make sure that you have an experienced instructor who has spent a lot of time exploring the various types of normal and aggravated spins. Get taught properly.
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A handful of responses and already a sad amount of mis-, dis- and just plain wrong information.
Go to a school which has aircraft that are cleared for spinning, and make sure that you have an experienced instructor who has spent a lot of time exploring the various types of normal and aggravated spins. Get taught properly.
Go to a school which has aircraft that are cleared for spinning, and make sure that you have an experienced instructor who has spent a lot of time exploring the various types of normal and aggravated spins. Get taught properly.
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Greeners, what if you get an instructor that does not have a great deal of spin experience and is fairly new? How is this instructor supposed to become an expert in spins if he is just starting out? Should he go to an aerobatic school to freshen up his skills?
thanks for all the comments and keep them coming.
thanks for all the comments and keep them coming.
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I've just been spinning a T67M Firefly. I was very worried about getting airsick prior to the sorties but having tried it have discovered how much fun it is! Thoroughly enjoyed it, and what a shame the Americans have cut all theirs up.
ap
ap
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Kloe, its a good question, and one that applies to flying with new FIs in general. If given a choice, many people will choose an experienced FI over an inexperienced one - so how does the inexperienced chap start to get experienced? The bottom line is that most students starting PPL training see a qualified person who has been signed off to carry out flying training, and know no better.
Some FIs start with the bare minimum of time and qualifications, others aren't really interested in flight instruction and can bemarking time until they get an airline slot. Some 'career instructors' love teaching and would probably be the first choice of some students, but personality comes into it as well and you may just find that you get on better or can relate more easily with a younger FI, who may actually be more enthusiastic than a chap who has been doing it for ages. For each of these cases, there will be those who are better and those who are not.
I'm trying to give a balanced picture here, and should declare that I do instruct with Ultimate High; we're fortunate in only using experienced instructors but appreciate that everybody has to start somewhere. We don't really provide PPL training and for that we recommend people take trial lessons with a few local schools to see what suits them. For more specialised training - and, as has been pointed out in a variety of places official and unofficial, with the removal of spinning from the PPL syllabus, spinning IS specialised, and your new FI can get away with only having done two spins in his entire life to date - then IMHO you should go to people who spend a higher proportion of their time in the air not flying straight and level the right way up.
Good sources to find such places include http://www.baef.org.uk/current_perspectives.htm and of course the BAeA website.
Good for you on wanting to explore the edges of the flight envelope - it will improve you as a pilot.
Some FIs start with the bare minimum of time and qualifications, others aren't really interested in flight instruction and can bemarking time until they get an airline slot. Some 'career instructors' love teaching and would probably be the first choice of some students, but personality comes into it as well and you may just find that you get on better or can relate more easily with a younger FI, who may actually be more enthusiastic than a chap who has been doing it for ages. For each of these cases, there will be those who are better and those who are not.
I'm trying to give a balanced picture here, and should declare that I do instruct with Ultimate High; we're fortunate in only using experienced instructors but appreciate that everybody has to start somewhere. We don't really provide PPL training and for that we recommend people take trial lessons with a few local schools to see what suits them. For more specialised training - and, as has been pointed out in a variety of places official and unofficial, with the removal of spinning from the PPL syllabus, spinning IS specialised, and your new FI can get away with only having done two spins in his entire life to date - then IMHO you should go to people who spend a higher proportion of their time in the air not flying straight and level the right way up.
Good sources to find such places include http://www.baef.org.uk/current_perspectives.htm and of course the BAeA website.
Good for you on wanting to explore the edges of the flight envelope - it will improve you as a pilot.
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Kloe,
I understand from your posting that your a little bit nervous of spining?
I can understand why as my first spining experience was not a pleasant one. 
Instructor put me in a full spin in a cherokee that wasnt certified for this excercise and lets just put it this way my pants were a little wet after the flight. 
I was always nervous thereafter until I got an instructor who let me do the spinning myself and the recovery (before it was always just recovery). Once I knew how to do it I loved it. Every chance I get over she goes.
I understand from your posting that your a little bit nervous of spining?
I can understand why as my first spining experience was not a pleasant one. Instructor put me in a full spin in a cherokee that wasnt certified for this excercise and lets just put it this way my pants were a little wet after the flight. I was always nervous thereafter until I got an instructor who let me do the spinning myself and the recovery (before it was always just recovery). Once I knew how to do it I loved it. Every chance I get over she goes.
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Kloe I notice your from canada and I don't know what the instructors course is like over there.
In the UK as part of the instructors course the Instructor instructor so to speak will brief and demo and make you perform spins. During the test it is manditory that you perform a spin for the test. You don't need to patter it (instructors speak for a talk through demo) but you do need to recover. Its not really taught as such so you can teach spins more that you can recover quickly if anything goes wrong. In my test the examiner stuck us in one while pretending to practise a stall. So it was a student frozen on the controls while stalling followed by a spin.
Going from what greeners says I might add that I have been in a mode of spin in a C152 that I had never seen or heard of before it happened. The FII was doing max rate turns and was trying to flick roll it into a spin by using max roll inputs. While doing it he said he had been trying to do it for years but the C152 wouldn't. Next thing we knew we had flicked over the top into a full developed flat spin which was on a par with PA38. It wouldn't recover using the POH method. And in the end the instructor put some power on and got it pointing at the ground with the rudder doing its job.
An areo's course after PPL would be my advice and don't go and try it for yourself.
In the UK as part of the instructors course the Instructor instructor so to speak will brief and demo and make you perform spins. During the test it is manditory that you perform a spin for the test. You don't need to patter it (instructors speak for a talk through demo) but you do need to recover. Its not really taught as such so you can teach spins more that you can recover quickly if anything goes wrong. In my test the examiner stuck us in one while pretending to practise a stall. So it was a student frozen on the controls while stalling followed by a spin.
Going from what greeners says I might add that I have been in a mode of spin in a C152 that I had never seen or heard of before it happened. The FII was doing max rate turns and was trying to flick roll it into a spin by using max roll inputs. While doing it he said he had been trying to do it for years but the C152 wouldn't. Next thing we knew we had flicked over the top into a full developed flat spin which was on a par with PA38. It wouldn't recover using the POH method. And in the end the instructor put some power on and got it pointing at the ground with the rudder doing its job.
An areo's course after PPL would be my advice and don't go and try it for yourself.