Ice Layer calculations
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Ice Layer calculations
hey people, as its getting closer to the winter, I would just like to ask about how to calculate the icing layer in the air, I think it was using the F215 to calculate it, but totally forgotten the calculations. 
, and i'm sure other pilots might want to hear this as no one want an iced aircraft.
Take Care
BRIAN304
, and i'm sure other pilots might want to hear this as no one want an iced aircraft.Take Care
BRIAN304
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A very rough estimate for the 0C level, too rough to be of much use 95% of the time (but don't tell your instructor 
) is to take the surface temperature and subtract 2C for every 1000ft until you get to 0C so if e.g. sfc=+10C then you would expect 0C to be at 5000ft.
But as I say this is way off on many days; the other day I took off at +13C and at 6500ft it was +14C. That was at 150kt TAS so the actual temp was around +12C to +13C. That's what you call an inversion.
You can find the 0C level on F214 and F215, as well as on many other weather data sources on the www.
Clboy: I am not sure what a "single" has to do with this Do two engines protect you from airframe icing?
) is to take the surface temperature and subtract 2C for every 1000ft until you get to 0C so if e.g. sfc=+10C then you would expect 0C to be at 5000ft. But as I say this is way off on many days; the other day I took off at +13C and at 6500ft it was +14C. That was at 150kt TAS so the actual temp was around +12C to +13C. That's what you call an inversion.
You can find the 0C level on F214 and F215, as well as on many other weather data sources on the www.
Clboy: I am not sure what a "single" has to do with this
Do two engines protect you from airframe icing?
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haha singles are easily iced in winter conditions, especially I am going to fly to scotland soon probably, so I don't want the aircraft to be iced up to cause problems. With a twin engine, even if you do get iced on one engine you still have the other right?. But on a single I don't think you'll be able to get back up again. Thanks for the advice anyway.
BRIAN304
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I think you are mixing up carb ice, with airframe ice, with some as yet undiscovered type of ice which affects one engine and not the other.
You'd definitely get a Nobel Prize if you characterised the last one.
You need an instructor, not a twin.
You'd definitely get a Nobel Prize if you characterised the last one.
You need an instructor, not a twin.
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haha singles are easily iced in winter conditions, especially I am going to fly to scotland soon probably, so I don't want the aircraft to be iced up to cause problems. With a twin engine, even if you do get iced on one engine you still have the other right?. But on a single I don't think you'll be able to get back up again. Thanks for the advice anyway.
BRIAN304
BRIAN304
God help us getting into the airways if the OAT below zero, I would never get to go flying! There is a difference between climbing through the freezing layer and sitting in it for as long period of time. We often climb through freezing cloud and accumulate ice to arrive in the sunshine on top and the ice will melt away. All in a non deiced single. But I assure you my Twin ices up just the same as the Cessna, but I have only used the deice once. It is about carefull planning, risk assessment and judgement.
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Then ask for a new level..... ATC will not keep you in a dangerous situation. I have often been held pending a further climnb and when requested a change due to ice had no problems with approval.
We like pedantic, this is PPRUNE after all....
We like pedantic, this is PPRUNE after all....
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What do you do when the freezing level is below MSA?
Probably, you don't go. That's the price for not having a Gulfstream, or a 747, basically.
When you're in the climb how do you know where the tops are? - often the cloud goes higher than unpressurised aircraft!
You do proper flight planning. Get skew-t charts for locations enroute, etc.
Being UNpressurised is not connected with the operating ceiling. You just get the oxygen on. Plenty of unpressurised planes will go to 25k feet which is above 99% of stratus cloud, and the other stuff one has to handle differently.
I have never asked for a climb due to ice as I've never flown in icing conditions in other than a anti/de-iced aircraft, but I have flown in de-iced types, so can agree that often it's a short lived problem; but not always, sometimes it's wore than you expect.
Yes, it's a case of doing the planning properly, and keeping escape routes open.
I am not saying it's impossible to operate an aircraft without ice equipment in the UK in winter, but I am saying it's not easy in terms of judgement and knowledge, and demands considerable experience. Bose, you obviously have this experience and knowledge, but has Brian304?
He may not, but one can always learn from those that do it. You probably aren't going to learn how to get a TAF off the internet from the average GA instructor, let alone how to get the more obscure stuff.
Probably, you don't go. That's the price for not having a Gulfstream, or a 747, basically.
When you're in the climb how do you know where the tops are? - often the cloud goes higher than unpressurised aircraft!
You do proper flight planning. Get skew-t charts for locations enroute, etc.
Being UNpressurised is not connected with the operating ceiling. You just get the oxygen on. Plenty of unpressurised planes will go to 25k feet which is above 99% of stratus cloud, and the other stuff one has to handle differently.
I have never asked for a climb due to ice as I've never flown in icing conditions in other than a anti/de-iced aircraft, but I have flown in de-iced types, so can agree that often it's a short lived problem; but not always, sometimes it's wore than you expect.
Yes, it's a case of doing the planning properly, and keeping escape routes open.
I am not saying it's impossible to operate an aircraft without ice equipment in the UK in winter, but I am saying it's not easy in terms of judgement and knowledge, and demands considerable experience. Bose, you obviously have this experience and knowledge, but has Brian304?
He may not, but one can always learn from those that do it. You probably aren't going to learn how to get a TAF off the internet from the average GA instructor, let alone how to get the more obscure stuff.
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"You probably aren't going to learn how to get a TAF off the internet from the average GA instructor, let alone how to get the more obscure stuff."
Pray tell how you can make such a sweeping statment IO540? your training must have been far superior to that which everyone else had, now why did the word pompous spring to mind.
Pray tell how you can make such a sweeping statment IO540? your training must have been far superior to that which everyone else had, now why did the word pompous spring to mind.
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I may be a pompous whatever, FF, but looking at some of the subject matter, probably not inaccurate.
I never learnt anything remotely "advanced" in any training I've had, either.
I never learnt anything remotely "advanced" in any training I've had, either.
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I think the point here IO540 is that there's nothing advanced about obtaining relevant weather info from whatever source it may be, pertaining to that days flying.
To say that your average PPL instructor is unable to source that info is making a very wide generalisation. Do standards vary that much across the UK? If I had shown that level of incompetence at CPL level and later as a FI I'm sure I would have failed at the pre flight planning stage.
To say that your average PPL instructor is unable to source that info is making a very wide generalisation. Do standards vary that much across the UK? If I had shown that level of incompetence at CPL level and later as a FI I'm sure I would have failed at the pre flight planning stage.
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You are right FF (and training standards vary hugely) but that's not really the issue.
For plain PPL VFR flying, arguably all you need is TAFs METARs and supposedly the F215, plus F214 so you can get the wind aloft for the circular slide rule
For IFR, it's different. The tactic depends on the aircraft performance.
I know nothing about jets but if you have anti-ice, radar, FL400 ceiling and can do +5000fpm, you will have certain things to watch but basically nothing much is going to bother you. You certainly won't be bothered whether the stratus tops are at 12k or 16k or where the 0C level is. You will get a certain kind of weather briefing.
OTOH if you are a piston with a 20k ceiling and can do +400fpm at 10k, +200fpm at 18k, then the objective is to climb to VMC and you need a much better picture of the 10k-20k weather and IMC extent and temperatures. You can't find this on any CAA approved UK Met Office briefing that I know of. (The UKMO does have the 3D data but they sell it to commercial weather providers). One has to go to the GFS or other models; all on the internet and not taught in any formal syllabus.
It's funny how one person posts a one-liner question and we end up here, but it shows that there isn't a simple answer to these things. It's however very tempting to just say I have more important things to do.
For plain PPL VFR flying, arguably all you need is TAFs METARs and supposedly the F215, plus F214 so you can get the wind aloft for the circular slide rule
For IFR, it's different. The tactic depends on the aircraft performance.
I know nothing about jets but if you have anti-ice, radar, FL400 ceiling and can do +5000fpm, you will have certain things to watch but basically nothing much is going to bother you. You certainly won't be bothered whether the stratus tops are at 12k or 16k or where the 0C level is. You will get a certain kind of weather briefing.
OTOH if you are a piston with a 20k ceiling and can do +400fpm at 10k, +200fpm at 18k, then the objective is to climb to VMC and you need a much better picture of the 10k-20k weather and IMC extent and temperatures. You can't find this on any CAA approved UK Met Office briefing that I know of. (The UKMO does have the 3D data but they sell it to commercial weather providers). One has to go to the GFS or other models; all on the internet and not taught in any formal syllabus.
It's funny how one person posts a one-liner question and we end up here, but it shows that there isn't a simple answer to these things. It's however very tempting to just say I have more important things to do.
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As ever I find myself agreeing with IO540, maybe it is because he and I seem to do the same kind of intensive flying in GA aircraft.
I did my JAA IR and was taught nothing about weather planning, I did my CPL and was taught nothing about weather planning other than checking the basic met office stuff. The stuff that I had to teach myself afterwards was quite extensive. There are a lot of good resources out there that you discover by trial and error and through people like IO540 that allow you to do more advanced flying. FF if you were taught to subscribe to 3D data and understand skew-T charts as part of your CPL and FI course then you did indeed recieve exceptional training!
I would agree that the average FI is both unable to source that information and would further suggest that they are unable to understand it. Certainly none of them I have spoken to have been able to and in a couple of thousand hours I have met a few!
I did my JAA IR and was taught nothing about weather planning, I did my CPL and was taught nothing about weather planning other than checking the basic met office stuff. The stuff that I had to teach myself afterwards was quite extensive. There are a lot of good resources out there that you discover by trial and error and through people like IO540 that allow you to do more advanced flying. FF if you were taught to subscribe to 3D data and understand skew-T charts as part of your CPL and FI course then you did indeed recieve exceptional training!
I would agree that the average FI is both unable to source that information and would further suggest that they are unable to understand it. Certainly none of them I have spoken to have been able to and in a couple of thousand hours I have met a few!
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Thanks everyone, but I maybe don't have this ice planning skill cause maybe 1. I am a newly licensed PPL less than 2 months, 2. I did my license in america so we did not have any icing over there, 3. Its basically something that would be learnt in more deep research on my opinion. But thanks everyone for the comments, luckily i'll be flying together with someone alot more experienced flying to scotland, and maybe i'll leanr alot more from him, I was just trying to know before I went out with him.
Thanks anyway everyone.
BRIAN304
Thanks anyway everyone.
BRIAN304
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What are they putting in the beer in Uni's these day's
Brian look at your post above and now this one!
Brian304 vbmenu_register("postmenu_2936818", true);
Instead of being 'just another number' I could order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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Seats available Liverpool, But seats also needed aberdeen
Well PPL with night rating on a TB10 also about 180 hrs. Would be happy for anyone to help out in the passenger seat and do some radio or nav work, or even just entertain me. preference would be a girl
, but guys are good enough for me. But I also study in aberdeen, so anyone got any spare seats for sometimes when i'm in aberdeen?.
Thanks
PM me if interested.
BRI ^^
Night rating and 180 hours on a TB10 and you only qualified two months ago in the States, where apparently they have a miracle cure for icing on planes What are you studying? Journalism for the popular press(Sun)?
Alan Sugar has a good phrase for this sort of C+*P VAT!! You wont be catching me in that passenger seat! Probably done 180hrs on MS2004
Brian look at your post above and now this one!Brian304 vbmenu_register("postmenu_2936818", true);
Instead of being 'just another number' I could order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Age: 17
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Seats available Liverpool, But seats also needed aberdeen Well PPL with night rating on a TB10 also about 180 hrs. Would be happy for anyone to help out in the passenger seat and do some radio or nav work, or even just entertain me. preference would be a girl
, but guys are good enough for me. But I also study in aberdeen, so anyone got any spare seats for sometimes when i'm in aberdeen?.Thanks
PM me if interested.
BRI ^^
Night rating and 180 hours on a TB10 and you only qualified two months ago in the States, where apparently they have a miracle cure for icing on planes
What are you studying? Journalism for the popular press(Sun)?Alan Sugar has a good phrase for this sort of C+*P VAT!! You wont be catching me in that passenger seat! Probably done 180hrs on MS2004
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Holy crapola, 180hrs in 2 months! I am envious, I fly virtually every day and could not match that! What sort of flying have you been doing?
Strange that when I have flown in the USA there has always been ice, you must have flown from a very special place!
Strange that when I have flown in the USA there has always been ice, you must have flown from a very special place!
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Pprune is better than some other forums partly because the threads don't fill up (as much) with meaningless one-liners, so let's not start please. Let's keep technical threads technical.
please. Let's keep technical threads technical.
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Carb icing is a serious issue and features again and again in AAIB reports.
Is there ONE single reason why air-cooled GA piston engines have not migrated to Fuel injection over the past 20 years or so as per the automotive sector?
I am aware fuel injection engines are still prone to effects of ice but not to the same extent OR are they??
Simply curious
Is there ONE single reason why air-cooled GA piston engines have not migrated to Fuel injection over the past 20 years or so as per the automotive sector?
I am aware fuel injection engines are still prone to effects of ice but not to the same extent OR are they??
Simply curious