Vans RV-9A
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: UK
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Yes, it sounds like there are a lot of negatives for the RV's and lycomings. I think I might wait for the RV-12A then (All aluminium with Rotax), as I'm looking for metal airplane kit with a rotax/modern engine.
I love the Europa end product, but prefer a metal building project rather than composites.
Any other sugestions then?
I love the Europa end product, but prefer a metal building project rather than composites.
Any other sugestions then?
Join Date: Apr 2003
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There are a lot of proven designs, which are available in the VLA category. The Eurostar is the most popular, then there is the Sport Cruiser, the Sonex and possibly many more I am not aware of. Why the dislike of Composite, it is a very wide range of materials and aircraft to dislike.
Rod1
Rod1
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Vans have not suffered a drop in sales due to the introduction of the LSA rule in the USA. The LSA rules open up a new market to allow people who previously could not obtain a pilot certificate to take up flying. The LSA rules allow lower medical standards and restrict aircraft weight and performance. The RV-12 is being developed to meet these new LSA rules.
I burn 20-22 litres an hour of 100LL with an O-320 Lycoming cruising at 140-150 kts and I expect to reduce the fuel burn when the engine is fully run in and I start to lean off fully.
The TBO on a Lycoming is 2000 hrs, they frequently run to 2600hrs in non certified aircraft. Looking at Rotax the TBO on the twostrokes is 300 Hrs, the 4strokes have TBOs varying from 600 to 1200hrs. Basicly you get what you pay for.
Rod1 whats this green tax? Is this in addition to the £1.09+VAT per litre that I already pay.
Hen Ddraig
Time to spare, go by air.
I burn 20-22 litres an hour of 100LL with an O-320 Lycoming cruising at 140-150 kts and I expect to reduce the fuel burn when the engine is fully run in and I start to lean off fully.
The TBO on a Lycoming is 2000 hrs, they frequently run to 2600hrs in non certified aircraft. Looking at Rotax the TBO on the twostrokes is 300 Hrs, the 4strokes have TBOs varying from 600 to 1200hrs. Basicly you get what you pay for.
Rod1 whats this green tax? Is this in addition to the £1.09+VAT per litre that I already pay.
Hen Ddraig
Time to spare, go by air.
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The TBO in the UK of a Rotax 912S is 1500 hours and expected to rise to 2000 ish over the next 5 years. PFA aircraft can run engines on condition indefinitely, so this is of little relevance. A modern composite aircraft such as an MCR01 VLA with a 912 will burn 15lph at 140kn. My 180 Lyc burned 40lph of Avgas at £1.40, my Rotax uses Unleaded at 85p. Add in the difference in the cost of bits and the heavy oil use and frequent oil changes and it is what you would expect when comparing a 1940’s design with something 50 years newer. With 100,000 912’s flying worldwide and an exceptional safety record I would find it hard to go back having sampled the difference.
Rod1
Rod1
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I have to agree with Rod here, maybe in the US a lycoming is fine, with there fuel costs, the rotax in the UK seems a much better bet, not only the cost of a replacement but also maintenance, and the fact that avgas is so expensive and will probably be made not available in the near future !
If Rod is burning 40L/h in his Lyc 180, he obviously doesn't know how to lean properly.
Plus, comparing the fuel burn on a 180hp Lycoming to a 100hp Rotax is a little disingenuous. I think you'll find that a properly operated certified Lycoming will be close to competitive with a Rotax (on a BSFC basis), and in a PFA aircraft with an electronic ignition system, even more so.
Rod is obviously blinkered when he says the Lycoming is 1940's technology. If he were given the design brief to deliver 180hp at a Lyc power/weight, he would struggle to achieve much better without turning out something that looked pretty much like a Lycoming.
A
PS: even at the extortionate 25L/h premium over the Rotax that Rod claims, it's still relative peanuts cost-wise compared to the other costs of running an aircraft for a typical 100hrs/year flyer. 100hp might do 140kts, but how much can it lift and how fast?
Plus, comparing the fuel burn on a 180hp Lycoming to a 100hp Rotax is a little disingenuous. I think you'll find that a properly operated certified Lycoming will be close to competitive with a Rotax (on a BSFC basis), and in a PFA aircraft with an electronic ignition system, even more so.
Rod is obviously blinkered when he says the Lycoming is 1940's technology. If he were given the design brief to deliver 180hp at a Lyc power/weight, he would struggle to achieve much better without turning out something that looked pretty much like a Lycoming.
A
PS: even at the extortionate 25L/h premium over the Rotax that Rod claims, it's still relative peanuts cost-wise compared to the other costs of running an aircraft for a typical 100hrs/year flyer. 100hp might do 140kts, but how much can it lift and how fast?
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A direct comparison between an O-200 and 912S is however very relevant. O-200 usually about 21 lt/hr - generating less than 75 hp (which is at somewhere between 2350 and 2500 depending on which souce you use). 912S 15 to 16 lt/hr generating around 75 hp potentially a little more. Installed weights between 100 and 110 lbs lighter.
No a modern 180h engine would not look like a Lycon, it would almost certainly be geared and at least partially water cooled - very much like a 912....
No a modern 180h engine would not look like a Lycon, it would almost certainly be geared and at least partially water cooled - very much like a 912....
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The 180hp aircraft is burning £5600 of fuel in a 100 hours, my Rotax will burn about £1600 in the same time. This was the main reason I spent 3 years building my own machine. The figures are ‘absolute’, in that they are based on fuel used and paid for so the aircraft would not have been leaned off in the climb for example. The 180hp Figures are based on 7 pilots over a 4 year period, the Rotax is all me. Expect the fuel costs to more than double in the next three years and again for the next three.
No a 220 hp modern engine would bear about as much resemblance to a Lyk as a modern car does to a vintage Austin. How do I know, because Rotax have designed one!
Bombardier Recreational Products Division has introduced its V220 and V300T aircraft engines. The fuel-injected, watercooled, 120-degree V-6 engine line has a single overhead camshaft and starts with a normally aspirated 220-hp and a turbocharged 300-hp version. A dual redundant electronic engine control unit provides true single-lever control of throttle, prop and mixture setting. Adaptive knock controlling allows the engine to sense the fuel (Avgas or Mogas) and adjust the engine timing accordingly. The engine is geared. Etc etc
Rod1
No a 220 hp modern engine would bear about as much resemblance to a Lyk as a modern car does to a vintage Austin. How do I know, because Rotax have designed one!
Bombardier Recreational Products Division has introduced its V220 and V300T aircraft engines. The fuel-injected, watercooled, 120-degree V-6 engine line has a single overhead camshaft and starts with a normally aspirated 220-hp and a turbocharged 300-hp version. A dual redundant electronic engine control unit provides true single-lever control of throttle, prop and mixture setting. Adaptive knock controlling allows the engine to sense the fuel (Avgas or Mogas) and adjust the engine timing accordingly. The engine is geared. Etc etc
Rod1
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I agree that the majority of RVs in the world are found in the USA - but so are the majority of the worlds GA aircraft!
As for the Lycoming/Rotax debate there's enough Lycomings around which work perfectly well and reliably to TBO and beyond. They may not be the most efficient but they don't need radiators, coolant, gear boxes etc to complicate things.
Build an RV, fit a Lycoming in it and fly the a*se off it and you'll see why they are hard to beat as an all round excellent flying machine.
How many Europ/Ban-bi owner/builders have gone on to build another? How many and in how many countries do they operate compared with RVs?
If you don't believe me just go and blag a ride in an RV and try and stop grinning afterwards....
PS The V220 Bombardier engines are very pretty and I'd love one in the nose of the RV but I fear they might be a tad more expensive than a new Lycoming. Still, could be worse, people might start extolling the virtues of diesels........
As for the Lycoming/Rotax debate there's enough Lycomings around which work perfectly well and reliably to TBO and beyond. They may not be the most efficient but they don't need radiators, coolant, gear boxes etc to complicate things.
Build an RV, fit a Lycoming in it and fly the a*se off it and you'll see why they are hard to beat as an all round excellent flying machine.
How many Europ/Ban-bi owner/builders have gone on to build another? How many and in how many countries do they operate compared with RVs?
If you don't believe me just go and blag a ride in an RV and try and stop grinning afterwards....
PS The V220 Bombardier engines are very pretty and I'd love one in the nose of the RV but I fear they might be a tad more expensive than a new Lycoming. Still, could be worse, people might start extolling the virtues of diesels........
The Rotax V6 has been 'coming' for about as long as some of the diesels. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we see a production Zoche diesel before a production V220 or V300T. 
I think you'll find that the V220/300 has two overhead camshafts - twice as many as strictly necessary - more friction, more complexity, more weight.
Pop a FADEC on a Lyc and you'll see equivalent performance, multi-fuel capability etc as a Rotax without the weight, cooling penalty or complexity that comes as standard with the V300T
re: fuel cost, I agree that you probably can fly a 100hp aircraft for £1600 a year, but it's not the sole domain of the Rotax. You could probably come close with 1940's technology in an O200 or O235. On a PFA machine, it could be possible to convert to MOGAS too. Comparing it to a 180hp flying machine is pointless.
oh, and I could find at least 7 pilots in the UK that all fly around everywhere fully rich. 40L/h is scandalous!
I think you'll find that the V220/300 has two overhead camshafts - twice as many as strictly necessary - more friction, more complexity, more weight.
Pop a FADEC on a Lyc and you'll see equivalent performance, multi-fuel capability etc as a Rotax without the weight, cooling penalty or complexity that comes as standard with the V300T
re: fuel cost, I agree that you probably can fly a 100hp aircraft for £1600 a year, but it's not the sole domain of the Rotax. You could probably come close with 1940's technology in an O200 or O235. On a PFA machine, it could be possible to convert to MOGAS too. Comparing it to a 180hp flying machine is pointless.
oh, and I could find at least 7 pilots in the UK that all fly around everywhere fully rich. 40L/h is scandalous!
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rv9a building
I'm building one, also have rv6, and imported 4 rv9a kits in one go so anything you need to know just ask. I note that no one mentioned how long they take - it's a massive amount of very detailed work. My advice is keep it simple & buy anything pre-built that you can. You also require a fairly comprehensive set of tools not just a drill and rivet gun. You also need to learn riveting - this is not too hard though. Oh, and just one gripe, if you modify anything the PFA can take an age to approve it & countless additional details etc. - they are an inefficient bunch of old women who who milk the pfa funds without regard to the members some of which struggle to afford the fees etc. I'm aware of at least one jolly to the Vans aircraft factory- how much did that cost?
By the way, the Vans guys offer the best tech. support for any product I've ever had. What an excellent well run company!
By the way, the Vans guys offer the best tech. support for any product I've ever had. What an excellent well run company!
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Check out the Vans website for guff on the first flight of the RV12
http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/r...rst_flight.htm
http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/r...rst_flight.htm
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RANS? RANS? IT'S NOT 'KIN 'RANS' IT'S 'VANS'.....!!!!
I never say 'Vans' on the radio anymore, just RV-6 - otherwise people expect a microlight thing and get confused....
Vans = Dick Van Grunsven
Rans = Randy Schlitter (I jest not)
I never say 'Vans' on the radio anymore, just RV-6 - otherwise people expect a microlight thing and get confused....
Vans = Dick Van Grunsven
Rans = Randy Schlitter (I jest not)
